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Effectively it forces scrapers to become a party to the terms of service, which usually contains the "no programmatic access (other than via paid API)" or speci
by nkozyra 12d ago
Effectively it forces scrapers to become a party to the terms of service, which usually contains the "no programmatic access (other than via paid API)" or specifically prohibits automated scraping.
- stymaar 12d agoHow can an automated process be a party in the terms of services though?
- nkozyra 12d ago> How can an automated process be a party in the terms of services though? If it's auth-gated, it needs to be, well, authenticated. The person who provides that, and the subsequent automated scraping, is the party, and would be the recipient of a civil suit.
- stymaar 12d ago> If it's auth-gated, it needs to be, well, authenticated. AFAIK, there isn't an single auth scheme on earth that guarantee human intervention[1]. Anyone can set-up a robot creating new users on a whim using single-use email addresses and even phone numbers. In fact, we know that OpenAI's agent have been doing exactly that when attacking Rubygem. And all AI labs are likely doing it for scrapping social media as well. Who are you gonna sue then? [1] the closest thing is Altman iris scanning venture, but without a broad adoption it's remains functionally useless.
- immibis2 12d agoBy setting that up, you take on the liability for it. The defendant is whoever set it up. No different from "if I roll a car down a hill and it hits something at the bottom, how can you hold the car liable?"
- stymaar 12d agoThat's not how ToS work though. ToS are contracts. If you don't sign the contract nobody can sue you for violating it. > No different from "if I roll a car down a hill and it hits something at the bottom, how can you hold the car liable?" That's the difference between criminal and civil justice. You don't need to sign a law for it to bind you, but for contracts you do.
- nkozyra 12d ago> If you don't sign the contract nobody can sue you for violating it. But terms of service are contracts which you sign by agreeing. Courts have looked somewhat favorably on "I didn't read that" defenses, but accepting the agreement is a legal contract between you and the service provider.
- stymaar 12d agoMy point is that you don't have to accept anything.
- nkozyra 12d agoSure. But then you don't get credentials and can't scrape.
- lazide 11d agoEven if you get the credentials via middle man?
- stymaar 11d agoYou keep saying that but unless company start doing KYC there's absolutely no link between auth and ToS. The authentication mechanisms used by websites don't have a specific legal power, it's just a POST request among other GET requests sent during scraping. And we have jurisprudence saying scrapping is legal no matter what the ToS of the website says, because the scraping entity never signed up the contract. The only protection against scrapping that auth is giving you isn't a legal one, it's a technical one (you can detect and ban the scraping user account).
- jaggederest 11d agoThe person who sets up that robot is the person responsible and effectively signing the contract by those actions. > Who are you gonna sue then? The person who set up the robot.
- boie0025 11d agoIt seems that simple, I agree, but digging in we're winding up in a bit of a "responsible party" black hole, at least it seems from my non-legal engineer perspective. If I ask an AI to find me articles on some arbitrary things and it hacks the Gibson to do it; and I am not a computer expert, it will be a struggle a bit to honestly put the blame on me. It's always been that way I think.. in what reasonable world can a non-lawyer agree to 100+ pages of a ToS and actually understand it? No world. But that's the point I think. What if I modify every TOS in HTML before I submit it and then agree by checking the box under my "redlined" version of the contract? I think this stuff is going to become exponentially murkier as time goes on.
- jaggederest 11d agoCompletely agree that the world is full of absolute nonsense, but legally determining responsible parties appears to be relatively straightforward (but does involve a judge or jury)
- boie0025 11d agoYes, agreed. Except "involve a judge or jury" is where the wildcard comes in. I believe there will be reasons to doubt culpability as we move further into the nonsense. Justified or not. My point is really just that we're in some weird territory, so I guess I'm going to make popcorn and watch. Some deeper legal questions lurk in this mess, and I don't think the obvious answers will always necessarily be right.
- lazide 11d agoGood luck finding them or proving it, esp. if done via third party contractors in another jurisdiction
- immibis2 12d agoBreaking terms of service isn't a crime, at least, although the company is legally permitted to retaliate against it, such as by banning you.