2 ms·

China deliberately adopted western style market institutions. They joined the WTO. No, they aren't a fully westernized market, but they are closer to a competit

China deliberately adopted western style market institutions. They joined the WTO. No, they aren't a fully westernized market, but they are closer to a competitive marketplace than the state dictating all of what will or will not be built. I'm confused, what has America and the west lost the plot on? You would have preferred the west to exploit China more? This framing of a zero sum game is counterproductive.

rglover 12d ago
> This framing of a zero sum game is counterproductive. I agree but that's not at all what I was getting at. Quite the opposite. The mistake America made, what made it vulnerable, was playing everything like a zero sum game. We're in the early days of that behavior coming to roost.
- altcognito 12d ago
  No, that is exactly what you were getting at: > China played the smart long game and took advantage of America's... Zero sum games imply that if there is a winner, there has to be a loser. That one country takes advantage of another.
  - rglover 12d ago
    That's not my framing, that's literally what happened/is happening.
  - vanderZwan 11d ago
    I think they're saying America ended up positioning itself as the loser because they framed things as a zero-sum game. Which of course is a generalization, neither America nor China is a monolith, but I can certainly see some presidencies of the last decades leaning more into this attitude than others. “If you assume everyone only has hammers, you'll end up getting screwed”, or something like that.
    - rglover 11d ago
      Yes, thank you.
    - altcognito 10d ago
      > I think they're saying America ended up positioning itself as the loser because they framed things as a zero-sum game. I didn't bother responding earlier, and I'm not sure why I'm responding now because I don't think "because they framed things as a zero-sum game." explains anything, and it sounds like something that sounded like a retort but offered without any evidence means nothing.
      - vanderZwan 10d ago
        Just like how not everything is a zero-sum game, not everything is a debate where one side tries to "win" where every exchange is an aggressive retort trying to disprove the other's point. I was trying to clarify what I suspected the intent was. If even the suggestion of considering different points of view feels like an attempt to disprove your own position, then that mainly says something about how you are approaching this exchange.

rglover 12d ago

> This framing of a zero sum game is counterproductive. I agree but that's not at all what I was getting at. Quite the opposite. The mistake America made, what made it vulnerable, was playing everything like a zero sum game. We're in the early days of that behavior coming to roost.

altcognito 12d ago
No, that is exactly what you were getting at: > China played the smart long game and took advantage of America's... Zero sum games imply that if there is a winner, there has to be a loser. That one country takes advantage of another.
- rglover 12d ago
  That's not my framing, that's literally what happened/is happening.
- vanderZwan 11d ago
  I think they're saying America ended up positioning itself as the loser because they framed things as a zero-sum game. Which of course is a generalization, neither America nor China is a monolith, but I can certainly see some presidencies of the last decades leaning more into this attitude than others. “If you assume everyone only has hammers, you'll end up getting screwed”, or something like that.
  - rglover 11d ago
    Yes, thank you.
  - altcognito 10d ago
    > I think they're saying America ended up positioning itself as the loser because they framed things as a zero-sum game. I didn't bother responding earlier, and I'm not sure why I'm responding now because I don't think "because they framed things as a zero-sum game." explains anything, and it sounds like something that sounded like a retort but offered without any evidence means nothing.
    - vanderZwan 10d ago
      Just like how not everything is a zero-sum game, not everything is a debate where one side tries to "win" where every exchange is an aggressive retort trying to disprove the other's point. I was trying to clarify what I suspected the intent was. If even the suggestion of considering different points of view feels like an attempt to disprove your own position, then that mainly says something about how you are approaching this exchange.