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You're living in a bubble! A good portion of students can't find any job after graduation, let alone a crappy one. The job isn't even that crappy: $40k a year g

You're living in a bubble! A good portion of students can't find any job after graduation, let alone a crappy one. The job isn't even that crappy: $40k a year goes a long way in Montana. Wolfram Alpha says the cost of living in NYC is 2.06x what it is in Billings, Montana. Earning the equivalent of 80k NYC dollars is not a bad gig, even if it means working like a dog (isn't that what i-bankers do?).

jiggy2011 14y ago
I don't live in a bubble. What the article doesn't really mention is future earning potential. $40K doesn't look bad when you are 19, but if you are late 30s with a house and kids and are still doing physical work and a 3 hour commute everyday it doesn't look so good.
- randomdata 14y ago
  On the flip side, 18% of university graduates fail to even earn $20,000 per year. If you are going to roll the dice, $40K now and no income by age 40 is far better than $15K for the rest of your life. There are no guarantees in life, so why not make hay when the sun is shining?
  - jiggy2011 14y ago
    Well that's an 18% "chance", I'm guessing a large number of those 18% will be people who either graduated doing something useless or had some other reason they could not/did not work a high paying job. Such as starting a family and only working part time, or some medical reason. So not quite rolling the dice. I would still be reasonably confident that if you have a chance to do a good degree from a good school your outlook is a heck of a lot better than that. Of course the future is never clear, but that is as much a risk for people who don't go to college to those who do.
    - randomdata 14y ago
      > that is as much a risk for people who don't go to college to those who do. Statistically, you see a correlation of less risk by going to college because only people who fit a certain mould are able to go to college at all. For example, those with certain disabilities will be unable to study in school, and will also struggle in the workplace, which skews interpretations of the data in interesting ways. Keep in mind that the college educated make up about 20-25% of the population. The unemployment rate is around 7%. That means that the vast majority of the population are employed just fine without degrees, and many are making decent incomes at that.
      - jiggy2011 14y ago
        True, but the article seems to talk about people who presumably had the option to go to college (i.e the grades and aptitude) but opted not to.
        randomdata 14y ago
        If they have the aptitude and skill necessary to complete a degree, they likely also have the smarts to turn their career into more later in life. Maybe they intend to take that quick and easy money and use it to bootstrap a million dollar business in a few years? I get the feeling that you feel they have no road ahead without a degree, which I don't quite understand.
        jiggy2011 14y ago
        Not really, the issue is that having the right sort of experience to get ahead. I would wager that you are more likely to get a job as a graduate that will provide you with useful experience. A huge number of non grad jobs don't pay too bad by the standards of a younger person but really don't give the sorts of experience that help one get ahead. I know smart people who skipped college to work retail and 10 years on are still pulling not much more than minimum wage. With a reasonable degree they would certainly have had more options open to them.
- icegreentea 14y ago
  The earning potential comes from up-skilling and potentially applying yourself to other fields - literally. For example, the 40k mark seems awfully low compared to the pay up in Alberta. Mind you, the quotes of ~100k+ are typically for skilled labor - typically welders or the like. You will also note that generations of North Americans raised their family this way. Certainly not the easiest life, but definitely doable.
  - jiggy2011 14y ago
    True, but in such a case the real value of that first job comes from the training/education/experience it provides rather than the paycheck. So it is the value of that which should be compared against the value of college. The article doesn't seem to put a lot of mention to this.
ojbyrne 14y ago
From what I've heard rents are pretty near NYC rents in the towns closest to the oil. Either Billings, Montana is far enough away that you can't commute, or Wolfram Alpha's numbers are out of date. The article even mentions $1500 rent. The thing about cost of living adjustments to salaries is that sacrificing a standard of living to save more money is much easier in high cost of living areas.
TylerE 14y ago
The only people in a new york investment bank making $80k/yr are the janitors.
LargeWu 14y ago
Having grown up in western ND, I keep myself pretty well informed on the situation in the oil fields. First of all, Billings is nowhere near any of the current or probable future oil activity. The cost of living in Billings is irrelevant. In fact, it is likely that, unless you own a house already, the cost of living in or near the active oil activity actually exceeds New York City. Rent for a house or apartment can run several thousands of dollars, if you can even find one. There are entire families living year-round in camper trailers, and paying $1500/mo for the privilege of parking it somewhere. Or, you can live in a man-camp, which while cheaper, is basically the equivalent of an army barracks, where you get a bed and meals. Or, you could commute 2-3 hours each way, each day if you like, which lowers your cost of living, but have fun with that during the winter. It's an extremely hard lifestyle. There's a reason North Dakota has thousands and thousands of unfilled jobs. Much of it is dangerous, back-breaking physical labor for 12-16 hours a day, which you have to perform whether it's 100 degrees or 30 below zero.

jiggy2011 14y ago

I don't live in a bubble. What the article doesn't really mention is future earning potential. $40K doesn't look bad when you are 19, but if you are late 30s with a house and kids and are still doing physical work and a 3 hour commute everyday it doesn't look so good.

randomdata 14y ago
On the flip side, 18% of university graduates fail to even earn $20,000 per year. If you are going to roll the dice, $40K now and no income by age 40 is far better than $15K for the rest of your life. There are no guarantees in life, so why not make hay when the sun is shining?
- jiggy2011 14y ago
  Well that's an 18% "chance", I'm guessing a large number of those 18% will be people who either graduated doing something useless or had some other reason they could not/did not work a high paying job. Such as starting a family and only working part time, or some medical reason. So not quite rolling the dice. I would still be reasonably confident that if you have a chance to do a good degree from a good school your outlook is a heck of a lot better than that. Of course the future is never clear, but that is as much a risk for people who don't go to college to those who do.
  - randomdata 14y ago
    > that is as much a risk for people who don't go to college to those who do. Statistically, you see a correlation of less risk by going to college because only people who fit a certain mould are able to go to college at all. For example, those with certain disabilities will be unable to study in school, and will also struggle in the workplace, which skews interpretations of the data in interesting ways. Keep in mind that the college educated make up about 20-25% of the population. The unemployment rate is around 7%. That means that the vast majority of the population are employed just fine without degrees, and many are making decent incomes at that.
    - jiggy2011 14y ago
      True, but the article seems to talk about people who presumably had the option to go to college (i.e the grades and aptitude) but opted not to.
      - randomdata 14y ago
        If they have the aptitude and skill necessary to complete a degree, they likely also have the smarts to turn their career into more later in life. Maybe they intend to take that quick and easy money and use it to bootstrap a million dollar business in a few years? I get the feeling that you feel they have no road ahead without a degree, which I don't quite understand.
        jiggy2011 14y ago
        Not really, the issue is that having the right sort of experience to get ahead. I would wager that you are more likely to get a job as a graduate that will provide you with useful experience. A huge number of non grad jobs don't pay too bad by the standards of a younger person but really don't give the sorts of experience that help one get ahead. I know smart people who skipped college to work retail and 10 years on are still pulling not much more than minimum wage. With a reasonable degree they would certainly have had more options open to them.
icegreentea 14y ago
The earning potential comes from up-skilling and potentially applying yourself to other fields - literally. For example, the 40k mark seems awfully low compared to the pay up in Alberta. Mind you, the quotes of ~100k+ are typically for skilled labor - typically welders or the like. You will also note that generations of North Americans raised their family this way. Certainly not the easiest life, but definitely doable.
- jiggy2011 14y ago
  True, but in such a case the real value of that first job comes from the training/education/experience it provides rather than the paycheck. So it is the value of that which should be compared against the value of college. The article doesn't seem to put a lot of mention to this.

ojbyrne 14y ago

From what I've heard rents are pretty near NYC rents in the towns closest to the oil. Either Billings, Montana is far enough away that you can't commute, or Wolfram Alpha's numbers are out of date. The article even mentions $1500 rent. The thing about cost of living adjustments to salaries is that sacrificing a standard of living to save more money is much easier in high cost of living areas.

TylerE 14y ago

The only people in a new york investment bank making $80k/yr are the janitors.

LargeWu 14y ago

Having grown up in western ND, I keep myself pretty well informed on the situation in the oil fields. First of all, Billings is nowhere near any of the current or probable future oil activity. The cost of living in Billings is irrelevant. In fact, it is likely that, unless you own a house already, the cost of living in or near the active oil activity actually exceeds New York City. Rent for a house or apartment can run several thousands of dollars, if you can even find one. There are entire families living year-round in camper trailers, and paying $1500/mo for the privilege of parking it somewhere. Or, you can live in a man-camp, which while cheaper, is basically the equivalent of an army barracks, where you get a bed and meals. Or, you could commute 2-3 hours each way, each day if you like, which lowers your cost of living, but have fun with that during the winter. It's an extremely hard lifestyle. There's a reason North Dakota has thousands and thousands of unfilled jobs. Much of it is dangerous, back-breaking physical labor for 12-16 hours a day, which you have to perform whether it's 100 degrees or 30 below zero.