4 ms·

> the Nazis claimed they officially fought in the name of god against the atheist communists. Not the Christian God. The aim of the Nazis was to replace the Ch

by graemep 26d ago

> the Nazis claimed they officially fought in the name of god against the atheist communists. Not the Christian God. The aim of the Nazis was to replace the Christian ethos. Himmler said they aimed to get rid of the 10 commandments. They invented two religions (neo-paganism and Positive Christianity) as replacements for Christianity. They regarded Christianity as Jewish plot that overthrew the Roman Empire. Their ideal was to return to a pre-Christian European society, and Hitler said Sparta was the historical society closest to Nazi ideals. > and is justified as a crusade by certain christian politicians While they might be influential politicians, they are almost all also at odds with mainstream Christianity. There are similar problems with the wikipedia page about Christian terrorists. Most were anti-Catholic (so their enemies included most Christians). Others are "cultural Christians" rather than believers.

lukan 26d ago
The nazis were not a homogeneous block and neo paganism was not invented by them. They also made use of it, but actual neo pagans among the nazis were rare, it was rather marginal and the mainstream was still very christian. Their main believe uniting them was about blood and race. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Christians_movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Christians_movement And they did try to ignore/change the fact that Jesus was jewish and other stuff to help it establish a german identity religion. But I am pretty sure, that the many non nazis in germany fighting for germany did motivate themself by fighting against atheists and for god.
- graemep 26d ago
  While they did not invent neo-paganism per se, they invented a particular form of it that fit their ideology. They also invented "positive Christianity". The Nazi leadership and their core followers were very much committed to getting rid of Christianity. Certainly the heretical movement you refer to existed, but mainstream Christianity was not compatible with Nazi ideology . The Catholic church condemned the Nazi ideology as contrary to Christianity (in Mit brennender Sorge) and large numbers of protestants took the risk of condemning the "German Christian movement as heretical (e.g. those who joined the Confessing Church). I do not think the claim that they were "very Christian" is plausible.
  - lukan 26d ago
    "I do not think the claim that they were "very Christian" is plausible." I do claim the mainstream of people fighting for Hitler were very christian (of those who had any religion). Not that the hardcore inner Nazi circle was christian (probably none of them were). "The Catholic church condemned the Nazi ideology as contrary to Christianity (in Mit brennender Sorge)" But they only did so, after Hitler attacked their organisation, not before or after the Nazis rose to power. Hitler did not liked them, but had respect for the catholic church, as a old power institution. But he did not had them under control as the pope was elsewhere, so they started to attack their base. So not so much a question of morality or religion, but mere power in my view. But surely there were also quite a few Kräuterbein's (if you happen to know that book). Who did not went into open resistance, but did what they could to keep things sane and humane. "and large numbers of protestants took the risk of condemning the "German Christian movement as heretical (e.g. those who joined the Confessing Church)" I have a huge respect for those who did. But I don't believe their number was that large all in all. The majority marched in line.
    - graemep 26d ago
      How many of the majority were scared? Subject to propaganda? Is there evidence they were "very Christian" rather than nominally so? Were people fighting because they supported the Nazis or because they were fighting for their country? The Catholic Church also had to worry about what would happen to German Catholics. I do not think it was about power, it is the logical result of Christian thought. It is well known that Catholic areas of Germany voted against the Nazis and it is fairly obvious that the Nazi ideology was intrinsically opposed to Christianity.
      - lukan 26d ago
        Well, I am not a historian, but born as a german catholic and my 99 year old grandmother is still alive and of clear mind and I engaged with the topic a lot, so I probably do have some insights - but no, I don't know any absolute numbers here. But I do know, that the church was also very anti communist and that antisemitism was basically a christian tradition. As well as strict authorian rule with going after anyone who thinks different. So that was a common base.

by graemep 26d ago

lukan 26d ago

The nazis were not a homogeneous block and neo paganism was not invented by them. They also made use of it, but actual neo pagans among the nazis were rare, it was rather marginal and the mainstream was still very christian. Their main believe uniting them was about blood and race. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Christians_movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Christians_movement And they did try to ignore/change the fact that Jesus was jewish and other stuff to help it establish a german identity religion. But I am pretty sure, that the many non nazis in germany fighting for germany did motivate themself by fighting against atheists and for god.

graemep 26d ago
While they did not invent neo-paganism per se, they invented a particular form of it that fit their ideology. They also invented "positive Christianity". The Nazi leadership and their core followers were very much committed to getting rid of Christianity. Certainly the heretical movement you refer to existed, but mainstream Christianity was not compatible with Nazi ideology . The Catholic church condemned the Nazi ideology as contrary to Christianity (in Mit brennender Sorge) and large numbers of protestants took the risk of condemning the "German Christian movement as heretical (e.g. those who joined the Confessing Church). I do not think the claim that they were "very Christian" is plausible.
- lukan 26d ago
  "I do not think the claim that they were "very Christian" is plausible." I do claim the mainstream of people fighting for Hitler were very christian (of those who had any religion). Not that the hardcore inner Nazi circle was christian (probably none of them were). "The Catholic church condemned the Nazi ideology as contrary to Christianity (in Mit brennender Sorge)" But they only did so, after Hitler attacked their organisation, not before or after the Nazis rose to power. Hitler did not liked them, but had respect for the catholic church, as a old power institution. But he did not had them under control as the pope was elsewhere, so they started to attack their base. So not so much a question of morality or religion, but mere power in my view. But surely there were also quite a few Kräuterbein's (if you happen to know that book). Who did not went into open resistance, but did what they could to keep things sane and humane. "and large numbers of protestants took the risk of condemning the "German Christian movement as heretical (e.g. those who joined the Confessing Church)" I have a huge respect for those who did. But I don't believe their number was that large all in all. The majority marched in line.
  - graemep 26d ago
    How many of the majority were scared? Subject to propaganda? Is there evidence they were "very Christian" rather than nominally so? Were people fighting because they supported the Nazis or because they were fighting for their country? The Catholic Church also had to worry about what would happen to German Catholics. I do not think it was about power, it is the logical result of Christian thought. It is well known that Catholic areas of Germany voted against the Nazis and it is fairly obvious that the Nazi ideology was intrinsically opposed to Christianity.
    - lukan 26d ago
      Well, I am not a historian, but born as a german catholic and my 99 year old grandmother is still alive and of clear mind and I engaged with the topic a lot, so I probably do have some insights - but no, I don't know any absolute numbers here. But I do know, that the church was also very anti communist and that antisemitism was basically a christian tradition. As well as strict authorian rule with going after anyone who thinks different. So that was a common base.