3 ms·

$40,000 a year for a job where you "sometimes" work 15 hour days and have to get up at 4AM doesn't actually sound that great.

by jiggy2011 14y ago

bmj 14y ago
Compare this to racking up massive debt going to college without any guarantee of a decent job upon graduation.
- randomdata 14y ago
  Not to mention, assuming four years of study is the alternative, it puts one about $1.6M ahead by retirement, even ignoring the costs of education itself.
  - jiggy2011 14y ago
    How you get the 1.6M figure?
    - randomdata 14y ago
      Assumed a nominal 5% ROI on the $180K saved during those four years that would otherwise be not earned if going to school.
      - jiggy2011 14y ago
        5% would seem high to me and assumes that the money is saved an invested as opposed to spent on luxury goods. It also assumed that earnings potential throughout career will always be as good as that of an average college grad.
        randomdata 14y ago
        > 5% would seem high to me 5% is a pretty standard rate used in these type of calculations. It might be on the high side currently, but it is also low for other periods of time, hence being a decent average to work with. > and assumes that the money is saved an invested as opposed to spent on luxury goods. Naturally, but the potential remains. > It also assumed that earnings potential throughout career will always be as good as that of an average college grad. It makes no such assumptions. Earnings beyond the first four years after high school are completely irrelevant to my calculations. You will still have $1.6M in hand if you never made another cent, assuming you do not touch the investment until retirement.
        jiggy2011 14y ago
        I assumed based on "it puts one about $1.6M ahead by retirement" and since you won't touch your retirement funds before your retirement (or at least not within 4 years) then it would make sense to take future earnings potential into account. In other words by going to college you are still "investing" some amount of money in yourself for a future payoff that is presumably better, though of course may not necessarily be.
        randomdata 14y ago
        It is a valid point. Though according to the data, one really needs a post-graduate education to really see any kind of future payoff. By that point we could be looking at closer to a $3M difference. If you can make that up, then it is definitely worth it, but it is a long road ahead. With all that said, education is still worth it for education's sake. You don't really need to justify it with future incomes and better jobs. I find it disconcerting that so many do.
        bippi 14y ago
        Quoting Shakespeare won't get you very far at lunchtime.
michael_miller 14y ago
You're living in a bubble! A good portion of students can't find any job after graduation, let alone a crappy one. The job isn't even that crappy: $40k a year goes a long way in Montana. Wolfram Alpha says the cost of living in NYC is 2.06x what it is in Billings, Montana. Earning the equivalent of 80k NYC dollars is not a bad gig, even if it means working like a dog (isn't that what i-bankers do?).
- jiggy2011 14y ago
  I don't live in a bubble. What the article doesn't really mention is future earning potential. $40K doesn't look bad when you are 19, but if you are late 30s with a house and kids and are still doing physical work and a 3 hour commute everyday it doesn't look so good.
  - randomdata 14y ago
    On the flip side, 18% of university graduates fail to even earn $20,000 per year. If you are going to roll the dice, $40K now and no income by age 40 is far better than $15K for the rest of your life. There are no guarantees in life, so why not make hay when the sun is shining?
    - jiggy2011 14y ago
      Well that's an 18% "chance", I'm guessing a large number of those 18% will be people who either graduated doing something useless or had some other reason they could not/did not work a high paying job. Such as starting a family and only working part time, or some medical reason. So not quite rolling the dice. I would still be reasonably confident that if you have a chance to do a good degree from a good school your outlook is a heck of a lot better than that. Of course the future is never clear, but that is as much a risk for people who don't go to college to those who do.
      - randomdata 14y ago
        > that is as much a risk for people who don't go to college to those who do. Statistically, you see a correlation of less risk by going to college because only people who fit a certain mould are able to go to college at all. For example, those with certain disabilities will be unable to study in school, and will also struggle in the workplace, which skews interpretations of the data in interesting ways. Keep in mind that the college educated make up about 20-25% of the population. The unemployment rate is around 7%. That means that the vast majority of the population are employed just fine without degrees, and many are making decent incomes at that.
jetti 14y ago
What other jobs can you do with only a high school education and make that kind of money? College isn't for everybody. For those who decide not to go, this sounds like it beats working multiple minimum wage jobs.
protomyth 14y ago
I'd say the pay listed in the article is a bit off. McDonald's workers in Williston ND (not far from the MT border ) make $15/hr or $31,200 starting. Any quote of $40,000 is probably base salary without the overtime everyone is getting. If the kid learned how to do a vocation in high school / at home (e.g. welding), then they are probably getting a lot more. They started recruiting out of Canada because they were having a tough time getting welders in the USA[1]. The article does point out the biggest problem, finding a place to sleep. If I had the capital, I would probably build a capsule hotel[2] (modified a bit for Americans) with laundry and a drug store in the area. I have an uncle in the area renting 3 people parking places / power cord for their RV for $300/mo each and a mobile home for $1,200/mo. If you ever wanted to run a food truck or a business based on long hours / problematic shelter, this is a good place to try. 1) any job that cannot be done over the wire cannot be outsourced 2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRT4dU6r-KQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRT4dU6r-KQ
rprasad 14y ago
You are definitely living in a bubble. $40,000 [edit: $50,000k] a year plus benefits straight out of high school, with no experience or education requirements is an awesome job. Sure, these guys have to work occasional 15 hour days, and get up at 4am. But so do many hackers their age, and lawyers and (business) analysts will frequently work 12 hours days regularly for not much more pay. To put it in perspective (rough nationwide averages): teachers routinely make $30,000 starting. Most business majors will make $40k-50k starting as analysts or consultancy associates. Most lawyers will make between $30k-$80k (depending on the state and area of practice) if they can even find a paying job. Even engineers and programmers (as a group) only average $40k-$60k starting (not all STEM grads make as much as programmers).
- tptacek 14y ago
  Firsthand: graduates from top tier law schools with good grades have a very good shot at 150k starting, even recently. I know you're referring to lawyers in general, and top tier grads are a small subset. Just nerding out a little.

$40,000 a year for a job where you "sometimes" work 15 hour days and have to get up at 4AM doesn't actually sound that great.

bmj 14y ago

Compare this to racking up massive debt going to college without any guarantee of a decent job upon graduation.

randomdata 14y ago
Not to mention, assuming four years of study is the alternative, it puts one about $1.6M ahead by retirement, even ignoring the costs of education itself.
- jiggy2011 14y ago
  How you get the 1.6M figure?
  - randomdata 14y ago
    Assumed a nominal 5% ROI on the $180K saved during those four years that would otherwise be not earned if going to school.
    - jiggy2011 14y ago
      5% would seem high to me and assumes that the money is saved an invested as opposed to spent on luxury goods. It also assumed that earnings potential throughout career will always be as good as that of an average college grad.
      - randomdata 14y ago
        > 5% would seem high to me 5% is a pretty standard rate used in these type of calculations. It might be on the high side currently, but it is also low for other periods of time, hence being a decent average to work with. > and assumes that the money is saved an invested as opposed to spent on luxury goods. Naturally, but the potential remains. > It also assumed that earnings potential throughout career will always be as good as that of an average college grad. It makes no such assumptions. Earnings beyond the first four years after high school are completely irrelevant to my calculations. You will still have $1.6M in hand if you never made another cent, assuming you do not touch the investment until retirement.
        jiggy2011 14y ago
        I assumed based on "it puts one about $1.6M ahead by retirement" and since you won't touch your retirement funds before your retirement (or at least not within 4 years) then it would make sense to take future earnings potential into account. In other words by going to college you are still "investing" some amount of money in yourself for a future payoff that is presumably better, though of course may not necessarily be.
        randomdata 14y ago
        It is a valid point. Though according to the data, one really needs a post-graduate education to really see any kind of future payoff. By that point we could be looking at closer to a $3M difference. If you can make that up, then it is definitely worth it, but it is a long road ahead. With all that said, education is still worth it for education's sake. You don't really need to justify it with future incomes and better jobs. I find it disconcerting that so many do.
        bippi 14y ago
        Quoting Shakespeare won't get you very far at lunchtime.

michael_miller 14y ago

You're living in a bubble! A good portion of students can't find any job after graduation, let alone a crappy one. The job isn't even that crappy: $40k a year goes a long way in Montana. Wolfram Alpha says the cost of living in NYC is 2.06x what it is in Billings, Montana. Earning the equivalent of 80k NYC dollars is not a bad gig, even if it means working like a dog (isn't that what i-bankers do?).

jiggy2011 14y ago
I don't live in a bubble. What the article doesn't really mention is future earning potential. $40K doesn't look bad when you are 19, but if you are late 30s with a house and kids and are still doing physical work and a 3 hour commute everyday it doesn't look so good.
- randomdata 14y ago
  On the flip side, 18% of university graduates fail to even earn $20,000 per year. If you are going to roll the dice, $40K now and no income by age 40 is far better than $15K for the rest of your life. There are no guarantees in life, so why not make hay when the sun is shining?
  - jiggy2011 14y ago
    Well that's an 18% "chance", I'm guessing a large number of those 18% will be people who either graduated doing something useless or had some other reason they could not/did not work a high paying job. Such as starting a family and only working part time, or some medical reason. So not quite rolling the dice. I would still be reasonably confident that if you have a chance to do a good degree from a good school your outlook is a heck of a lot better than that. Of course the future is never clear, but that is as much a risk for people who don't go to college to those who do.
    - randomdata 14y ago
      > that is as much a risk for people who don't go to college to those who do. Statistically, you see a correlation of less risk by going to college because only people who fit a certain mould are able to go to college at all. For example, those with certain disabilities will be unable to study in school, and will also struggle in the workplace, which skews interpretations of the data in interesting ways. Keep in mind that the college educated make up about 20-25% of the population. The unemployment rate is around 7%. That means that the vast majority of the population are employed just fine without degrees, and many are making decent incomes at that.

jetti 14y ago

What other jobs can you do with only a high school education and make that kind of money? College isn't for everybody. For those who decide not to go, this sounds like it beats working multiple minimum wage jobs.

protomyth 14y ago

I'd say the pay listed in the article is a bit off. McDonald's workers in Williston ND (not far from the MT border ) make $15/hr or $31,200 starting. Any quote of $40,000 is probably base salary without the overtime everyone is getting. If the kid learned how to do a vocation in high school / at home (e.g. welding), then they are probably getting a lot more. They started recruiting out of Canada because they were having a tough time getting welders in the USA[1]. The article does point out the biggest problem, finding a place to sleep. If I had the capital, I would probably build a capsule hotel[2] (modified a bit for Americans) with laundry and a drug store in the area. I have an uncle in the area renting 3 people parking places / power cord for their RV for $300/mo each and a mobile home for $1,200/mo. If you ever wanted to run a food truck or a business based on long hours / problematic shelter, this is a good place to try. 1) any job that cannot be done over the wire cannot be outsourced 2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRT4dU6r-KQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRT4dU6r-KQ

rprasad 14y ago

You are definitely living in a bubble. $40,000 [edit: $50,000k] a year plus benefits straight out of high school, with no experience or education requirements is an awesome job. Sure, these guys have to work occasional 15 hour days, and get up at 4am. But so do many hackers their age, and lawyers and (business) analysts will frequently work 12 hours days regularly for not much more pay. To put it in perspective (rough nationwide averages): teachers routinely make $30,000 starting. Most business majors will make $40k-50k starting as analysts or consultancy associates. Most lawyers will make between $30k-$80k (depending on the state and area of practice) if they can even find a paying job. Even engineers and programmers (as a group) only average $40k-$60k starting (not all STEM grads make as much as programmers).

tptacek 14y ago
Firsthand: graduates from top tier law schools with good grades have a very good shot at 150k starting, even recently. I know you're referring to lawyers in general, and top tier grads are a small subset. Just nerding out a little.