4 ms·

I'm a little bit confused about these tire claims as > down to 0C / 32 F (he didn't test colder conditions) I get that people live in different places, but th

by IsTom 13d ago

I'm a little bit confused about these tire claims as > down to 0C / 32 F (he didn't test colder conditions) I get that people live in different places, but that's a huge caveat. How's that winter if you're not below 0°C? That sounds like "winter tires are worse than all-seasons tires in winter if you exclude winter".

pm215 13d ago
I agree that testing colder conditions would be useful, but I guess you get into problems with it being ice and snow that you're testing, not the "summer tyres get too hard in the cold" hypothesis. It's winter if it's noticeably cooler than summer. For instance London's climate has a January average minimum temperature of just under 3C, which is very clearly winter compared to the July minimum of 14C. (figures from Met office site on their Heathrow station.) While the temperature does drop below 0C sometimes, it is not consistently below zero. In southern England pretty much nobody changes tyres for winter -- you just use the same set all year. Optimising for "2C in the wet" seems about right...
- IsTom 13d ago
  > but I guess you get into problems with it being ice and snow that you're testing If it's not actively snowing for a few days roads get clear by thawing during day because of salt/cars being hot/sun shining. The "summer tyres get too hard in the cold" idea could very well come from places where the typical winter is at least < -5°C. It's not uncommon in central/eastern/northern europe for temperatures to be < -10°C for extended periods of time.
  - rjsw 13d ago
    The crossover point where winter tyres work better is < +7°C, it doesn't need to be below freezing.
    - pm215 13d ago
      The linked article claims "in dry conditions, summer tires have the best grip down to 0C", though, which doesn't seem to match where you suggest the crossover point is.
      - attila-lendvai 13d ago
        which is my experience, too. winter tires, especially the snow versions, are straight out a source of danger here in central europe. i just put some snow chains in for the winter surptises, and ride with my summer tires because its grip is clearly better on dry and wet bithumen, even in near zero temps, which is most of the season.
    - sgerenser 13d ago
      Did you read the article? I thought his whole point is that little piece of folk wisdom didn't turn out to be true in actual testing.
TacticalCoder 13d ago
> How's that winter if you're not below 0°C? Seasons are called summer, autumn, winter and spring and each last three months and that bears no relation to whether or not there's snow or sub-zero temperatures. In the country I live in atm the rules regarding winter tires are not the absolute dumbest but they're still very dumb: you need to have either winter tires or all-seasons tires "if the conditions are winter'y". Which means, basically, both sub-zero AND either wet or icy. Sub-zero and all sunny means winter tires aren't mandatory. The reason it's still dumb it's that that correspond to, at most, 10 days per year. And this forces a lot of people to have worse performing tires during much more than 10 days. Which is probably the cause for a lot of accidents (e.g. people on days where it's + 3 C would be safer with summer tires, that do perform way better than "I've got winter tires because tomorrow at 7am it may or may not be -1 C and it may or may not be raining"). Not that's of course dumbtardation but there's worse: there are countries where from that month to that month of winter, no matter the temperature, you must have winter (or all-seasons) tires. And at times you'll have an entire winter without freezing temperatures. So politicians who voted these laws are basically creating more accidents due to cars having inferior tires (the tires lobby does love it though). It's sad but it's how it is.
- kuerbel 13d ago
  A lot of drivers don't want it to be true but the quality of the tires absolutely matters. E.g. the usual ADAC test winner are actually good in dry conditions, but they are also expensive. The worst are just bad, but cheap. You get what you pay for. The best winter tires outclass bad summer tires, even up to lower middle end. The worst tires however are all-seasons.
27183 13d ago
Lately I've just been leaving my snow tires on year round (Bridgestone Blizzaks). It gets cold here, between November and April the number of days with daytime high above freezing is small. I used to run all seasons in the summer and snows in the winter but they were lasting too long that way. It's better to wear them out within ~5yr.
- threetonesun 13d ago
  I've done that with "mild" Winter tires, really the thing full Summer tires excell at is removing water, which requires a center tread that's useless in snow. So if you don't get a lot of rain and it doesn't get too hot (some Winter compounds will get mushy and wear very quickly) they're fine. But really I've just described a Winter rated All-Season at this point, and you should buy those.
  - 27183 13d ago
    All season tires are useless on snow and ice unless they're brand new. They're OK the first winter, after that it's bad news. On heavier vehicles I run BFGoodrich All Terrain T/A tires year round. They have good siped treads which grip on ice. For the car, studless Blizzaks have been holding up well year round. No abnormal wear so far, and they do fine in the wet, dry, heat, etc. I probably only drive 1-2 days/yr over 90°F though, in a hotter climate they might not be so great. [edit] obviously this is a tradeoff--I'm trading slightly reduced hot/dry/wet performance for massively increased winter performance. The reduction in summer performance is small enough to not be noticeable, whereas the increase in winter performance is large. On all season tires I would have to chain up a dozen or so times per year, often just to move the car like 3 car lengths out of a parking spot. I've only ever had to put the chains on once with snow tires on the car, and that was bashing through 6" of unplowed crusty icy stuff up a steep driveway.
    - dgacmu 13d ago
      I dunno about this - I leave my crossclimate 2 aw's on year round and they're pretty fantastic in snow. We had a pretty good winter this year (44" from dec-feb) and they just worked. I didn't go meandering around any mountains on them, mind you, but they're so far ahead of most typical all-season tires it's almost not fair to compare. For -most- lazy people who don't want to swap tires or rims, they seem a better option than leaving true winter tires on year round. Obviously, there are exceptions depending on where you live.
mplanchard 13d ago
Yes, this stuck out to me, too. I use winter tires in the winter specifically for the snow and consistently below-freezing temps. Are there places people bother with winter tires that aren’t actually cold in the winter?
- menaerus 13d ago
  If warranted by the law then yes, you have to abide to it.
  - mplanchard 13d ago
    Are there any places that require winter tires by law that don’t have cold winters? I don’t know of anywhere in the US that even requires winter tires, although I think some states require you to have winter tires OR chains.
    - menaerus 13d ago
      Sometimes the winters may be cold, some other times they may be exceptionally warm, and sometimes they're a mix of both. The law remains the same regardless what the winter was or is like. Countries that have exceptionally warm winters do not really have a winter conditions so I'd guess their law wouldn't have a requirement for winter tires or chains
      - mplanchard 13d ago
        Yes of course, anyone who lives somewhere with winter knows that some winters are colder than others. In the late fall when it is time to swap the tires, you don’t know in advance whether the winter will be harsh or mild, but people put snow tires on anyway in places where harsh winters are common. It would only make sense to require them every winter if the large majority of winters were quite cold. As such, nowhere in the US requires winter tires, but someone else noted that Quebec does. This makes sense, since even a mild Quebec winter will spend most of the time getting below freezing. I would be very surprised if there were a place that required winter tires by law where the winter does not always get and stay at or below freezing for significant periods of time almost every winter.

by IsTom 13d ago

pm215 13d ago

I agree that testing colder conditions would be useful, but I guess you get into problems with it being ice and snow that you're testing, not the "summer tyres get too hard in the cold" hypothesis. It's winter if it's noticeably cooler than summer. For instance London's climate has a January average minimum temperature of just under 3C, which is very clearly winter compared to the July minimum of 14C. (figures from Met office site on their Heathrow station.) While the temperature does drop below 0C sometimes, it is not consistently below zero. In southern England pretty much nobody changes tyres for winter -- you just use the same set all year. Optimising for "2C in the wet" seems about right...

IsTom 13d ago
> but I guess you get into problems with it being ice and snow that you're testing If it's not actively snowing for a few days roads get clear by thawing during day because of salt/cars being hot/sun shining. The "summer tyres get too hard in the cold" idea could very well come from places where the typical winter is at least < -5°C. It's not uncommon in central/eastern/northern europe for temperatures to be < -10°C for extended periods of time.
- rjsw 13d ago
  The crossover point where winter tyres work better is < +7°C, it doesn't need to be below freezing.
  - pm215 13d ago
    The linked article claims "in dry conditions, summer tires have the best grip down to 0C", though, which doesn't seem to match where you suggest the crossover point is.
    - attila-lendvai 13d ago
      which is my experience, too. winter tires, especially the snow versions, are straight out a source of danger here in central europe. i just put some snow chains in for the winter surptises, and ride with my summer tires because its grip is clearly better on dry and wet bithumen, even in near zero temps, which is most of the season.
  - sgerenser 13d ago
    Did you read the article? I thought his whole point is that little piece of folk wisdom didn't turn out to be true in actual testing.

TacticalCoder 13d ago

> How's that winter if you're not below 0°C? Seasons are called summer, autumn, winter and spring and each last three months and that bears no relation to whether or not there's snow or sub-zero temperatures. In the country I live in atm the rules regarding winter tires are not the absolute dumbest but they're still very dumb: you need to have either winter tires or all-seasons tires "if the conditions are winter'y". Which means, basically, both sub-zero AND either wet or icy. Sub-zero and all sunny means winter tires aren't mandatory. The reason it's still dumb it's that that correspond to, at most, 10 days per year. And this forces a lot of people to have worse performing tires during much more than 10 days. Which is probably the cause for a lot of accidents (e.g. people on days where it's + 3 C would be safer with summer tires, that do perform way better than "I've got winter tires because tomorrow at 7am it may or may not be -1 C and it may or may not be raining"). Not that's of course dumbtardation but there's worse: there are countries where from that month to that month of winter, no matter the temperature, you must have winter (or all-seasons) tires. And at times you'll have an entire winter without freezing temperatures. So politicians who voted these laws are basically creating more accidents due to cars having inferior tires (the tires lobby does love it though). It's sad but it's how it is.

kuerbel 13d ago
A lot of drivers don't want it to be true but the quality of the tires absolutely matters. E.g. the usual ADAC test winner are actually good in dry conditions, but they are also expensive. The worst are just bad, but cheap. You get what you pay for. The best winter tires outclass bad summer tires, even up to lower middle end. The worst tires however are all-seasons.

27183 13d ago

Lately I've just been leaving my snow tires on year round (Bridgestone Blizzaks). It gets cold here, between November and April the number of days with daytime high above freezing is small. I used to run all seasons in the summer and snows in the winter but they were lasting too long that way. It's better to wear them out within ~5yr.

threetonesun 13d ago
I've done that with "mild" Winter tires, really the thing full Summer tires excell at is removing water, which requires a center tread that's useless in snow. So if you don't get a lot of rain and it doesn't get too hot (some Winter compounds will get mushy and wear very quickly) they're fine. But really I've just described a Winter rated All-Season at this point, and you should buy those.
- 27183 13d ago
  All season tires are useless on snow and ice unless they're brand new. They're OK the first winter, after that it's bad news. On heavier vehicles I run BFGoodrich All Terrain T/A tires year round. They have good siped treads which grip on ice. For the car, studless Blizzaks have been holding up well year round. No abnormal wear so far, and they do fine in the wet, dry, heat, etc. I probably only drive 1-2 days/yr over 90°F though, in a hotter climate they might not be so great. [edit] obviously this is a tradeoff--I'm trading slightly reduced hot/dry/wet performance for massively increased winter performance. The reduction in summer performance is small enough to not be noticeable, whereas the increase in winter performance is large. On all season tires I would have to chain up a dozen or so times per year, often just to move the car like 3 car lengths out of a parking spot. I've only ever had to put the chains on once with snow tires on the car, and that was bashing through 6" of unplowed crusty icy stuff up a steep driveway.
  - dgacmu 13d ago
    I dunno about this - I leave my crossclimate 2 aw's on year round and they're pretty fantastic in snow. We had a pretty good winter this year (44" from dec-feb) and they just worked. I didn't go meandering around any mountains on them, mind you, but they're so far ahead of most typical all-season tires it's almost not fair to compare. For -most- lazy people who don't want to swap tires or rims, they seem a better option than leaving true winter tires on year round. Obviously, there are exceptions depending on where you live.

mplanchard 13d ago

Yes, this stuck out to me, too. I use winter tires in the winter specifically for the snow and consistently below-freezing temps. Are there places people bother with winter tires that aren’t actually cold in the winter?

menaerus 13d ago
If warranted by the law then yes, you have to abide to it.
- mplanchard 13d ago
  Are there any places that require winter tires by law that don’t have cold winters? I don’t know of anywhere in the US that even requires winter tires, although I think some states require you to have winter tires OR chains.
  - menaerus 13d ago
    Sometimes the winters may be cold, some other times they may be exceptionally warm, and sometimes they're a mix of both. The law remains the same regardless what the winter was or is like. Countries that have exceptionally warm winters do not really have a winter conditions so I'd guess their law wouldn't have a requirement for winter tires or chains
    - mplanchard 13d ago
      Yes of course, anyone who lives somewhere with winter knows that some winters are colder than others. In the late fall when it is time to swap the tires, you don’t know in advance whether the winter will be harsh or mild, but people put snow tires on anyway in places where harsh winters are common. It would only make sense to require them every winter if the large majority of winters were quite cold. As such, nowhere in the US requires winter tires, but someone else noted that Quebec does. This makes sense, since even a mild Quebec winter will spend most of the time getting below freezing. I would be very surprised if there were a place that required winter tires by law where the winter does not always get and stay at or below freezing for significant periods of time almost every winter.