3 ms·

Thats the problem with generalizations about Europe, there has been some progress towards harmonisation but lots of things vary hugely from country to country.

Thats the problem with generalizations about Europe, there has been some progress towards harmonisation but lots of things vary hugely from country to country. For every statement you have to add "except in Belgium", "except in Germany" etc, and he mostly just added the "except in UK" ones.

Xylakant 14y ago
There are some valid generalizations about europe. There are some mandated minimum holidays for example (4 weeks IIRC) and the tendency to have stronger employee rights. The work ethos is different as well, europeans tend to regard extreme outliers in wealth as extreme outliers, less as role models. The problem is that this article takes some assumptions that might be true for spain and uk and tries to sell them as 'europe'. I'd be interested if the majority of american investors see europe this way or if this is an outlier.
- rmc 14y ago
  The work ethos is different as well, europeans tend to regard extreme outliers in wealth as extreme outliers, less as role models. I think part of these stems from the fact that some of the extreme outliers in europe (in terms of wealth or political power) often inherited their wealth. Whereas the USA has the attitude that "This is America, the land of oppertunity, where an illiterate immigrant can step off the boat in ellis island and if he works hard enough, he can own a skyscraper in Manhatten". Whereas, in Europe, there are many people who inherited their wealth. There is also a much more noticable class system. Strong employee rights comes from blue collar people who, being aware of the class system, do not believe that they will ever be mega rich, and hence fought for more rights & laws for themselves. (Not to say either 'meme' is correct, I'm just pointing out what people think, which informs what they think.)
  - oscargrouch 14y ago
    I disagree with you, i think it has much more to do with the concept of happiness.. In US where the capitalism is too strong, people tendo to believe that wealthy = happiness Despite not been a european, but a brazilian, i think europeans understand that happiness its a more tricky and uneasy concept to conquer.. and is made of much more values.. even the simplest ones.. They are far more sophisticated in human relationships and the concept of happiness.. but lets not generalize..i know a lot of sophisticated americans.. but is much harder to get there.. cause it needs one to get free from its own dominating culture.. In Brazil we have similar regulations, and labor parties are stronger and popular.. We try to work and be happy with our work, and make a living, but also we want time to have fun, to be with the family.. even if you have to earn less money.. those are different perspectives from the life quality we all want and spect.. different equations, different answers.. who are right? i think it always depends.. what is good for you may not be good for me.. and this means it cannot be enforced by the stronger part of the relationship.. freedom is based on choice.. on the capacity and possibility of choosing.. if someone stronger, be it a enterpreteneur or a country, enforce someone to take a path, that is just limiting individual freedom.. and that is a real threat.. People are different, and have different life values.. we should protect that.. not enforce the "everyone should fit into this box, please!" behavior I tend to like more the way europeans live life than our brothers from north.. because its everything about happiness not about (just) money, and i think they(europeans) are more conscious about it. Life should be driven by passion, making a living, money, wealthy.. should be just a consequence of that.. or not :)
    - rmc 14y ago
      Interesting perspective, I hadn't thought of that.
- Someone 14y ago
  "The work ethos is different as well, europeans tend to regard extreme outliers in wealth as extreme outliers, less as role models. What does that have to do with work ethos? Do you think there is a strong correlation between working hard and the dream of becoming extremely wealthy? Of the four options, (born poor/rich, working hard/slacking) I agree that (born poor & slacking) is highly unlikely to make you wealthy, but that is about it. The exaggerated version of my view on workers rights in Europe/the EU (1), compared to the US, is that, in Europe, the class struggle between the Proletariat and the Bourgeoisie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proletariat#Usage_in_Marxist_theory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proletariat#Usage_in_Marxist_th...) has led to a distribution of power that gives more power to the proletariat. That is why, for example, consumer laws are stronger in the EU, and that workers have more rights, enforced by the EU, more or less acting for all workers. In the USA, "workers" and "owners" are more each others enemies than collaborators for a common cause (for an extreme example, see http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/02/mac-mcclelland-free-online-shipping-warehouses-labor http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/02/mac-mcclelland-f...), and workers work hard for two reasons: fear of their employers and the _dream_ of becoming extremely wealthy. In the EU, on the other hand, bosses respect their employees and give them room for self-development. That makes them work hard (did I say this was the exaggerated version?). I also thinks similar logic applies to medical insurance and the prison systems in the EU and the USA, but that may be a bit far sought. Also, some loose remarks on things stated in the article: - AFAIK, you can start your startup in a garage all you want. Rules about workplace conditions only apply to employees. As long as you don't have employees, you can work wherever and however you want. - Similarly, you can work as long as you want for your own company. - Many countries have limited liability companies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_liability_company http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_liability_company) that give you easy protection against losing your house in case your company goes bankrupt. The difficulty of starting one varies by country (Google showed me ads claiming a price of about €400–, or about €3000,– if you want one within four hours for Dutch ones) - When I learned about it earlier this year, I was surprised that Germans have to have a doctor's approval to report sick. That sounds like bureaucratic waste to me. In the Netherlands, you just report sick. (1) I know the two are different, but the EU 'exports' its rules outside the EU, too. For example, Switzerland is not in the EU, but it follows many EU directives because it wants to trade easily with its neighbors and even pays towards the EU budget (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland–European_Union_relations http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland–European_Union_rela...); Norway is not in the EU, but it is in the Schengen zone of 'no passport check on travel'. To get there, it has to comply with several EU rules (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway–European_Union_relations http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway–European_Union_relations) On the other hand, there are so many degrees of 'in the EU' that mere mortals cannot keep track of them (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union#Member_states http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union#Member_states: 27 members, one almost member, 5 candidates, 4 potential candidates, one potential candidate which is not recognized as an independent country by all, some EFTA countries not in the EU, micro states that have the euro, but are not in the EU, overseas areas of European countries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_member_state_territories_and_the_European_Union http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_member_state_territorie...). Nevertheless, I'll treat "Europe" and "the EU" as synonyms. That should do for this rant.

Xylakant 14y ago

There are some valid generalizations about europe. There are some mandated minimum holidays for example (4 weeks IIRC) and the tendency to have stronger employee rights. The work ethos is different as well, europeans tend to regard extreme outliers in wealth as extreme outliers, less as role models. The problem is that this article takes some assumptions that might be true for spain and uk and tries to sell them as 'europe'. I'd be interested if the majority of american investors see europe this way or if this is an outlier.

rmc 14y ago
The work ethos is different as well, europeans tend to regard extreme outliers in wealth as extreme outliers, less as role models. I think part of these stems from the fact that some of the extreme outliers in europe (in terms of wealth or political power) often inherited their wealth. Whereas the USA has the attitude that "This is America, the land of oppertunity, where an illiterate immigrant can step off the boat in ellis island and if he works hard enough, he can own a skyscraper in Manhatten". Whereas, in Europe, there are many people who inherited their wealth. There is also a much more noticable class system. Strong employee rights comes from blue collar people who, being aware of the class system, do not believe that they will ever be mega rich, and hence fought for more rights & laws for themselves. (Not to say either 'meme' is correct, I'm just pointing out what people think, which informs what they think.)
- oscargrouch 14y ago
  I disagree with you, i think it has much more to do with the concept of happiness.. In US where the capitalism is too strong, people tendo to believe that wealthy = happiness Despite not been a european, but a brazilian, i think europeans understand that happiness its a more tricky and uneasy concept to conquer.. and is made of much more values.. even the simplest ones.. They are far more sophisticated in human relationships and the concept of happiness.. but lets not generalize..i know a lot of sophisticated americans.. but is much harder to get there.. cause it needs one to get free from its own dominating culture.. In Brazil we have similar regulations, and labor parties are stronger and popular.. We try to work and be happy with our work, and make a living, but also we want time to have fun, to be with the family.. even if you have to earn less money.. those are different perspectives from the life quality we all want and spect.. different equations, different answers.. who are right? i think it always depends.. what is good for you may not be good for me.. and this means it cannot be enforced by the stronger part of the relationship.. freedom is based on choice.. on the capacity and possibility of choosing.. if someone stronger, be it a enterpreteneur or a country, enforce someone to take a path, that is just limiting individual freedom.. and that is a real threat.. People are different, and have different life values.. we should protect that.. not enforce the "everyone should fit into this box, please!" behavior I tend to like more the way europeans live life than our brothers from north.. because its everything about happiness not about (just) money, and i think they(europeans) are more conscious about it. Life should be driven by passion, making a living, money, wealthy.. should be just a consequence of that.. or not :)
  - rmc 14y ago
    Interesting perspective, I hadn't thought of that.
Someone 14y ago
"The work ethos is different as well, europeans tend to regard extreme outliers in wealth as extreme outliers, less as role models. What does that have to do with work ethos? Do you think there is a strong correlation between working hard and the dream of becoming extremely wealthy? Of the four options, (born poor/rich, working hard/slacking) I agree that (born poor & slacking) is highly unlikely to make you wealthy, but that is about it. The exaggerated version of my view on workers rights in Europe/the EU (1), compared to the US, is that, in Europe, the class struggle between the Proletariat and the Bourgeoisie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proletariat#Usage_in_Marxist_theory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proletariat#Usage_in_Marxist_th...) has led to a distribution of power that gives more power to the proletariat. That is why, for example, consumer laws are stronger in the EU, and that workers have more rights, enforced by the EU, more or less acting for all workers. In the USA, "workers" and "owners" are more each others enemies than collaborators for a common cause (for an extreme example, see http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/02/mac-mcclelland-free-online-shipping-warehouses-labor http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/02/mac-mcclelland-f...), and workers work hard for two reasons: fear of their employers and the _dream_ of becoming extremely wealthy. In the EU, on the other hand, bosses respect their employees and give them room for self-development. That makes them work hard (did I say this was the exaggerated version?). I also thinks similar logic applies to medical insurance and the prison systems in the EU and the USA, but that may be a bit far sought. Also, some loose remarks on things stated in the article: - AFAIK, you can start your startup in a garage all you want. Rules about workplace conditions only apply to employees. As long as you don't have employees, you can work wherever and however you want. - Similarly, you can work as long as you want for your own company. - Many countries have limited liability companies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_liability_company http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_liability_company) that give you easy protection against losing your house in case your company goes bankrupt. The difficulty of starting one varies by country (Google showed me ads claiming a price of about €400–, or about €3000,– if you want one within four hours for Dutch ones) - When I learned about it earlier this year, I was surprised that Germans have to have a doctor's approval to report sick. That sounds like bureaucratic waste to me. In the Netherlands, you just report sick. (1) I know the two are different, but the EU 'exports' its rules outside the EU, too. For example, Switzerland is not in the EU, but it follows many EU directives because it wants to trade easily with its neighbors and even pays towards the EU budget (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland–European_Union_relations http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland–European_Union_rela...); Norway is not in the EU, but it is in the Schengen zone of 'no passport check on travel'. To get there, it has to comply with several EU rules (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway–European_Union_relations http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway–European_Union_relations) On the other hand, there are so many degrees of 'in the EU' that mere mortals cannot keep track of them (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union#Member_states http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union#Member_states: 27 members, one almost member, 5 candidates, 4 potential candidates, one potential candidate which is not recognized as an independent country by all, some EFTA countries not in the EU, micro states that have the euro, but are not in the EU, overseas areas of European countries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_member_state_territories_and_the_European_Union http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_member_state_territorie...). Nevertheless, I'll treat "Europe" and "the EU" as synonyms. That should do for this rant.