5 ms·

I don't live in a country with the kind of employee protection rules as in Germany, but the article still comes off as a rant against employee protections. Can

by RyanZAG 14y ago

I don't live in a country with the kind of employee protection rules as in Germany, but the article still comes off as a rant against employee protections. Can't afford to treat your employees like humans? Want to give them big bonuses and then fire them the following year so they can't pay the mortgage on that house they put a deposit down on with that bonus? Don't want to shell out a bit of money on decent offices, and rather shove them in some little basement somewhere? None of this is required for a startup. You can actually treat your employees as human regardless of the stage of your business - especially considering that this guy can easily afford this stuff.

Svip 14y ago
I also don't buy the notion that Europeans are generally resentful towards entrepreneurs.
- skrebbel 14y ago
  This differs enormously across countries. Which is really the problem with targeting anything at "Europe" (be it a blog post or a business): there's always something new that differs enormously across countries.
- Swizec 14y ago
  In my experience the ex communist countries are still heavily resentful towards entrepreneurs. Especially because for the past 20 years being an entrepreneur has mostly meant legally stealing big corporations. At least in the eyes of many. There are a lot of decent entrepreneurs, but they don't get any press. However, the general mantra is "He has more than we do, he is obviously a scoundrel and a thief. You can't get there by being honest."
  - raverbashing 14y ago
    That's the true tragedy of places where 'under the table' is the norm rather than the exception (including ex-communist countries but not limited to them)
  - neumann_alfred 14y ago
    There isn't just one single general mantra. For example, the notion that success/money prove the value of what you're doing -- instead of your own rational reflection, nothing else -- is often heard, from big shots to wannabes. Just look at the crap Microsoft, Facebook, Intel, Google and Apple got/get away with. Yeah we bitch, sometimes, but generally it's a-okay because the ends justifies the means, they're household names, la-di-blah. If we're already that FUBAR with stuff that is out in the open, the full spectrum is probably not very flattering either.
- jdkx 14y ago
  It's most certainly true in France and I guess in other Latin countries.
  - Svip 14y ago
    But but but « entrepreneur » is a French word!
  - rickmb 14y ago
    So how did entrepreneurs like Sarkozy and Berlusconi ever get elected? Get off it. Entrepreneurs aren't worshiped like gods by default just for being entrepreneurs, that's all.
    - Rexxar 14y ago
      Sarkozy is not an entrepreneur. It's theorically a lawyer but he is a full time politician for 30 years (He was mayor of Neuilly since 1983).
- davidw 14y ago
  A ... well, I'm not going to get specific, as he's probably not too hard to locate via facebook or something, but a person I know through my wife was ranting about how all entrepreneurs are dishonest thieves at dinner the other day. Granted, this was an after-a-few-bottles-of-wine chat at the table, not a serious, reasoned opinion from someone who I do respect, but still, it's not an uncommon opinion here in Italy.
  - neumann_alfred 14y ago
    Yeah well, and here we're looking at an article claiming "it's illegal to work hard in the EU", which wasn't even wrote by a random drunk and is just as bad. Also: http://www.garann.com/dev/2012/what-the-fuck-is-an-entrepreneur/ http://www.garann.com/dev/2012/what-the-fuck-is-an-entrepren...
  - stdbrouw 14y ago
    It wouldn't be too hard to find someone holding the same views in the US, I should think.
  - danmaz74 14y ago
    Unfortunately, this is often true here in Italy: The main reason, imho, is that rules are often so difficult to follow that selection is working against the more honest entrepreneurs...
    - davidw 14y ago
      Exactly. One of the first people many Italians think of when they hear 'entrepreneur' is Berlusconi, whose 'big idea' wasn't something new or clever or otherwise particularly innovative, but a sneaky way around the state television monopoly. I think it's an example that shows both sides of the coin: the oppressive state, and the "entrepreneur" being not an innovator, but someone good at bending the rules. So yeah, that's probably where that comes from, but it's a vicious circle, because people look down on those who are doing something new and creative as well.
      - 14y ago
- k-mcgrady 14y ago
  Personally I don't think people are resentful to entrepreneurs but it isn't glorified the way it is elsewhere. If I told an American friend I ran my own business they would usually be very interested and tell me how great that is. Most of the people I know (Europeans) tend to think of it as 'not a real job' and regular tell me 'I should get a real job'. These aren't people trying to hurt me, they legitimately believe that I need a real job. I don't think entrepreneurship is celebrated less here, I think that is it only celebrated when you are either incredibly successful or have something to show for it i.e. you have a store you run. It's hard for a lot of people to understand software development and that I can work from my house with nothing but a laptop, meet clients online, and only talk with them via the internet.
  - aes256 14y ago
    Certainly, in British culture, hard work carries a certain amount of respect, and those who are perceived to have obtained wealth without putting the work in (as applies to many 'entrepreneurs') are absolutely resented. Perhaps related is the fact ostentatious displays of wealth are generally frowned upon. In the US it seems fashionable for entrepreneurs to become fabulously wealthy, then flaunt their wealth as 'inspiration' to other would-be entrepreneurs. In Britain, if not the rest of Europe, this draws resentment more so than admiration.
    - walshemj 14y ago
      Not sure id agree with you "old" money will look down on new money. Apparently some old money Sloanes used look down Kate Mideltons parents self made millionaires. Her Mum as an ex Air hostess was refered to as ‘doors to manual'
  - rtpg 14y ago
    to be fair I don't think that being a telecommuting software developer is glorified anywhere really. From France, the view seems to be that small businesses are mainly for artisanal things. People don't really have this idea of working your life away because our culture believes (rightly so? I imagine here the opinion might be opposite) more in that work is not the meaning of life, and so the idea of spending so many hours toiling away (especially in something like software eng, where there are 10000s of consultancies you could work for and probably be beter paid) seems counterintuitive. That or you're just greedy. I'd also like to point out that Europe is not a country, talking about "Europeans" is silly outside of the context of "people who have access to affordable healthcare", and that mentalities change enormously across borders.
- ronaldmannak 14y ago
  You'd be surprised. Ambition is generally seen as bad. The best description of European culture(s) is the Law of Jante: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante
  - Svip 14y ago
    You'd be surprised by how little that actually applies today. Yet, politicians and public debators always talk about it. And I should know; I am Danish.
davidw 14y ago
> Can't afford to treat your employees like humans? Want to give them big bonuses and then fire them the following year so they can't pay the mortgage on that house they put a deposit down on with that bonus? Don't want to shell out a bit of money on decent offices, and rather shove them in some little basement somewhere? Isn't this something the market will mostly take care of, especially in tech where people can easily change jobs? "Jobs for life" is a net negative in Italy: it keeps young people out of jobs, and it makes people hold on for dear life to jobs they hate and aren't great at just because they are Permanent Jobs. Far better to have a lot of flexibility, and state support for the unemployed, rather than turning employers into supporters of people they do not wish to employ.
- Svip 14y ago
  I somewhat agree; you basically need a middle ground. It shouldn't be too easy to fire people, but neither should it be too hard. I think what we have in my country (.dk) hits that middle ground fairly decently.
  - danmaz74 14y ago
    As a matter of fact, here in Italy Denmark is often cited as a very good example to follow regarding work regulations.
    - carlob 14y ago
      By Ichino who was until a few days ago part of a very small, yet vocal, minority of a center-left party and has now joined the ranks of the centrr-right. His views are far far from being mainstream...
- rmc 14y ago
  Isn't this something the market will mostly take care of Only if there is a perfectly functioning market. Which there often isn't in many cases. Hence the laws.
  - 14y ago
HarryHirsch 14y ago
This article is worse than a rant. People rant in response to intolerable conditions. But this fellow has been entrepeneur-ing in Europe for more than 15 years, he has done quite well by his own admission, and now, after all this time, comes up with this hit piece against employee rights. It's deeply dishonest.
- walshemj 14y ago
  Doesn't seem to have learned much in 15 years then.

by RyanZAG 14y ago

Svip 14y ago

I also don't buy the notion that Europeans are generally resentful towards entrepreneurs.

skrebbel 14y ago
This differs enormously across countries. Which is really the problem with targeting anything at "Europe" (be it a blog post or a business): there's always something new that differs enormously across countries.
Swizec 14y ago
In my experience the ex communist countries are still heavily resentful towards entrepreneurs. Especially because for the past 20 years being an entrepreneur has mostly meant legally stealing big corporations. At least in the eyes of many. There are a lot of decent entrepreneurs, but they don't get any press. However, the general mantra is "He has more than we do, he is obviously a scoundrel and a thief. You can't get there by being honest."
- raverbashing 14y ago
  That's the true tragedy of places where 'under the table' is the norm rather than the exception (including ex-communist countries but not limited to them)
- neumann_alfred 14y ago
  There isn't just one single general mantra. For example, the notion that success/money prove the value of what you're doing -- instead of your own rational reflection, nothing else -- is often heard, from big shots to wannabes. Just look at the crap Microsoft, Facebook, Intel, Google and Apple got/get away with. Yeah we bitch, sometimes, but generally it's a-okay because the ends justifies the means, they're household names, la-di-blah. If we're already that FUBAR with stuff that is out in the open, the full spectrum is probably not very flattering either.
jdkx 14y ago
It's most certainly true in France and I guess in other Latin countries.
- Svip 14y ago
  But but but « entrepreneur » is a French word!
- rickmb 14y ago
  So how did entrepreneurs like Sarkozy and Berlusconi ever get elected? Get off it. Entrepreneurs aren't worshiped like gods by default just for being entrepreneurs, that's all.
  - Rexxar 14y ago
    Sarkozy is not an entrepreneur. It's theorically a lawyer but he is a full time politician for 30 years (He was mayor of Neuilly since 1983).
davidw 14y ago
A ... well, I'm not going to get specific, as he's probably not too hard to locate via facebook or something, but a person I know through my wife was ranting about how all entrepreneurs are dishonest thieves at dinner the other day. Granted, this was an after-a-few-bottles-of-wine chat at the table, not a serious, reasoned opinion from someone who I do respect, but still, it's not an uncommon opinion here in Italy.
- neumann_alfred 14y ago
  Yeah well, and here we're looking at an article claiming "it's illegal to work hard in the EU", which wasn't even wrote by a random drunk and is just as bad. Also: http://www.garann.com/dev/2012/what-the-fuck-is-an-entrepreneur/ http://www.garann.com/dev/2012/what-the-fuck-is-an-entrepren...
- stdbrouw 14y ago
  It wouldn't be too hard to find someone holding the same views in the US, I should think.
- danmaz74 14y ago
  Unfortunately, this is often true here in Italy: The main reason, imho, is that rules are often so difficult to follow that selection is working against the more honest entrepreneurs...
  - davidw 14y ago
    Exactly. One of the first people many Italians think of when they hear 'entrepreneur' is Berlusconi, whose 'big idea' wasn't something new or clever or otherwise particularly innovative, but a sneaky way around the state television monopoly. I think it's an example that shows both sides of the coin: the oppressive state, and the "entrepreneur" being not an innovator, but someone good at bending the rules. So yeah, that's probably where that comes from, but it's a vicious circle, because people look down on those who are doing something new and creative as well.
    - 14y ago
k-mcgrady 14y ago
Personally I don't think people are resentful to entrepreneurs but it isn't glorified the way it is elsewhere. If I told an American friend I ran my own business they would usually be very interested and tell me how great that is. Most of the people I know (Europeans) tend to think of it as 'not a real job' and regular tell me 'I should get a real job'. These aren't people trying to hurt me, they legitimately believe that I need a real job. I don't think entrepreneurship is celebrated less here, I think that is it only celebrated when you are either incredibly successful or have something to show for it i.e. you have a store you run. It's hard for a lot of people to understand software development and that I can work from my house with nothing but a laptop, meet clients online, and only talk with them via the internet.
- aes256 14y ago
  Certainly, in British culture, hard work carries a certain amount of respect, and those who are perceived to have obtained wealth without putting the work in (as applies to many 'entrepreneurs') are absolutely resented. Perhaps related is the fact ostentatious displays of wealth are generally frowned upon. In the US it seems fashionable for entrepreneurs to become fabulously wealthy, then flaunt their wealth as 'inspiration' to other would-be entrepreneurs. In Britain, if not the rest of Europe, this draws resentment more so than admiration.
  - walshemj 14y ago
    Not sure id agree with you "old" money will look down on new money. Apparently some old money Sloanes used look down Kate Mideltons parents self made millionaires. Her Mum as an ex Air hostess was refered to as ‘doors to manual'
- rtpg 14y ago
  to be fair I don't think that being a telecommuting software developer is glorified anywhere really. From France, the view seems to be that small businesses are mainly for artisanal things. People don't really have this idea of working your life away because our culture believes (rightly so? I imagine here the opinion might be opposite) more in that work is not the meaning of life, and so the idea of spending so many hours toiling away (especially in something like software eng, where there are 10000s of consultancies you could work for and probably be beter paid) seems counterintuitive. That or you're just greedy. I'd also like to point out that Europe is not a country, talking about "Europeans" is silly outside of the context of "people who have access to affordable healthcare", and that mentalities change enormously across borders.
ronaldmannak 14y ago
You'd be surprised. Ambition is generally seen as bad. The best description of European culture(s) is the Law of Jante: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante
- Svip 14y ago
  You'd be surprised by how little that actually applies today. Yet, politicians and public debators always talk about it. And I should know; I am Danish.

davidw 14y ago

> Can't afford to treat your employees like humans? Want to give them big bonuses and then fire them the following year so they can't pay the mortgage on that house they put a deposit down on with that bonus? Don't want to shell out a bit of money on decent offices, and rather shove them in some little basement somewhere? Isn't this something the market will mostly take care of, especially in tech where people can easily change jobs? "Jobs for life" is a net negative in Italy: it keeps young people out of jobs, and it makes people hold on for dear life to jobs they hate and aren't great at just because they are Permanent Jobs. Far better to have a lot of flexibility, and state support for the unemployed, rather than turning employers into supporters of people they do not wish to employ.

Svip 14y ago
I somewhat agree; you basically need a middle ground. It shouldn't be too easy to fire people, but neither should it be too hard. I think what we have in my country (.dk) hits that middle ground fairly decently.
- danmaz74 14y ago
  As a matter of fact, here in Italy Denmark is often cited as a very good example to follow regarding work regulations.
  - carlob 14y ago
    By Ichino who was until a few days ago part of a very small, yet vocal, minority of a center-left party and has now joined the ranks of the centrr-right. His views are far far from being mainstream...
rmc 14y ago
Isn't this something the market will mostly take care of Only if there is a perfectly functioning market. Which there often isn't in many cases. Hence the laws.
- 14y ago

HarryHirsch 14y ago

This article is worse than a rant. People rant in response to intolerable conditions. But this fellow has been entrepeneur-ing in Europe for more than 15 years, he has done quite well by his own admission, and now, after all this time, comes up with this hit piece against employee rights. It's deeply dishonest.

walshemj 14y ago
Doesn't seem to have learned much in 15 years then.