3 ms·

> I only have the nagging question that if it’s so easy, why would the clients not do it by themselves? Plenty of reasons, including: 1. They don't (yet) know

> I only have the nagging question that if it’s so easy, why would the clients not do it by themselves? Plenty of reasons, including: 1. They don't (yet) know how to use AI to accomplish what they need. 2. The ROI is still meaningfully positive and they don't want to have to do it themselves. 3. Having a third-party do the work provides protection for decision-makers. If the project fails, the third-party takes the blame and "nobody gets fired for buying IBM". 4. The vendor does bring valuable insight to the table and pairs it with the use of AI to deliver a result that wouldn't have been possible in-house. This doesn't mean that everyone will be able to get work and maintain their rates in AI world but some people will.

magicalist 21d ago
I mean they've boasted[1] about their generated code being so good that they add basically zero value and that they're riding out the rentseeking for as long as possible. Meanwhile they've apparently played with LLM porting of Postgres (or Postgres features?) and "would not put it in production"[2], so we can also guess the kind and scope of features being discussed here. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49594498 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49594498 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48855951 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48855951
- anonzzzies 21d ago
  The second was just for fun; it is fun. This is very far from the code we roll out at customers though. We build LoB apps which are basically crud apps (they are not but most here would call it that). We can have fun and make money right? Possibly at the same time but not in that case.
  - magicalist 21d ago
    > The second was just for fun; it is fun. This is very far from the code we roll out at customers though. Which is fine, great even (I do the same thing!), but in trying different things outside your day job, it seems like you do understand why people working on different things than you might be "reporting all these negative AI experiences"?
- ramesh31 21d ago
  They're not "adding no value", the SLA is the value. I have a business problem, and I pay you to solve it and support your solution for me, is a completely different proposition than standing up your own solution as a non-technical org and maintaining it.
  - magicalist 21d ago
    > They're not "adding no value", the SLA is the value The code their Astra+Fable setup, automatically generated from requests customers leave in voicemails, is apparently so good they never correct it. If the stories being woven are true, the SLA is literally just a middleman's 100k cut. At the very least there might be some particulars here that aren't universally applicable.
    - ramesh31 21d ago
      >"the SLA is literally just a middleman's 100k cut" Indeed, welcome to enterprise software.
- jazzypants 21d ago
  It's a pretty bad sign when you need to resort to this kind of comment stalking to try to find ammunition for a general argument. This user could be a complete con man, and it still wouldn't invalidate the core thesis of LLMs providing business value.
  - hgcfeccg 21d ago
    [dead]
  - magicalist 21d ago
    > you need to resort to this kind of comment stalking to try to find ammunition for a general argument It's not a general argument, they made specific claims, but vague posted (and implying everyone else must be crazy) to the point that the conversation is derailed by a bunch of people trying to figure out what they meant. > it still wouldn't invalidate the core thesis of LLMs providing business value. lol, no, "providing business value" is not what was claimed: >> What are people here doing exactly that they are not riding the gravy train and even reporting all these negative AI experiences?
  - Capricorn2481 21d ago
    Hard disagree. It adds context to what they said.
brandonmenc 21d ago
I recently tried to encourage my smart, technical, but not-programmer friend to build an app using LLMs and he was just like, "I still have no idea where to even start." People talk a lot about how "real programmers" used to have to clean up or actually deploy everyone's half-baked MS Access app, and that sort of thing will probably still be the case for a while.
- dofm 21d ago
  > to clean up or actually deploy everyone's half-baked MS Access app So we are switching to LLMs to be fucking miserable in our jobs?
  - entrope 21d ago
    The whole point of the MS Access reference is that similar situations have been tropes since at least the 1990s. Bad code generated by someone who doesn't know how to program well -- whether that person is supposed to be a professional programmer but is incompetent, or has a different job -- is nothing new, and neither is having competent programmers clean it up. LLMs probably generate more of it, but can also fix a lot of it, or at least patch it up. A year ago, LLMs were not useful for me as a programmer. Now they are: the models are better, they can use long contexts more effectively, and the harnesses are better at helping the models. Nowadays my job is mostly not programming, but LLMs let me organize and prepare tools in spare time rather than needing days or weeks of attention. I would not trust them on a 200k+ line project -- and Claude Opus 5 has issues even on 50k LOC projects -- but they absolutely can help given good direction and a narrow enough scope.
    - dofm 21d ago
      > The whole point of the MS Access reference is that similar situations have been tropes since at least the 1990s. I do actually understand that. I have done this very put the Access database on the web job myself. (FWIW I was well-paid for it and the firm I worked for earned a fortune, but this was in 1997)
    - entrope 21d ago
dofm 21d ago
Yes but it's cheaper? Of course they will do it by themselves. Because it's cheaper. I mean it's weird that we all imagine reasons why we're still relevant when we have set fire to the thing that made us indispensable. It's cheaper.
- ElProlactin 20d ago
  > I mean it's weird that we all imagine reasons why we're still relevant when we have set fire to the thing that made us indispensable. Very few things in this world are all-or-nothing, and not every purchasing decision is based on price alone. Do you always buy the cheapest meal? Car? When you renovate your house, do you always choose the cheapest contractor? Tons of developers will lose their jobs, and many more will find it hard to maintain the salaries/rates the industry has been accustomed to. This is already happening. The days where an average graduate from a run-of-the-mill CompSci program or even a coding bootcamp could sleepwalk into a $150,000+/year entry-level job are largely gone. The days where you have job security simply because you're a competent developer with 10 years of experience are in the process of going away. This does not mean that there is no subset of developers who cannot be successful in this market. There are people who are doing just fine because they know how to articulate their value and sell themselves to employers or clients.

magicalist 21d ago

I mean they've boasted[1] about their generated code being so good that they add basically zero value and that they're riding out the rentseeking for as long as possible. Meanwhile they've apparently played with LLM porting of Postgres (or Postgres features?) and "would not put it in production"[2], so we can also guess the kind and scope of features being discussed here. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49594498 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49594498 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48855951 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48855951

anonzzzies 21d ago
The second was just for fun; it is fun. This is very far from the code we roll out at customers though. We build LoB apps which are basically crud apps (they are not but most here would call it that). We can have fun and make money right? Possibly at the same time but not in that case.
- magicalist 21d ago
  > The second was just for fun; it is fun. This is very far from the code we roll out at customers though. Which is fine, great even (I do the same thing!), but in trying different things outside your day job, it seems like you do understand why people working on different things than you might be "reporting all these negative AI experiences"?
ramesh31 21d ago
They're not "adding no value", the SLA is the value. I have a business problem, and I pay you to solve it and support your solution for me, is a completely different proposition than standing up your own solution as a non-technical org and maintaining it.
- magicalist 21d ago
  > They're not "adding no value", the SLA is the value The code their Astra+Fable setup, automatically generated from requests customers leave in voicemails, is apparently so good they never correct it. If the stories being woven are true, the SLA is literally just a middleman's 100k cut. At the very least there might be some particulars here that aren't universally applicable.
  - ramesh31 21d ago
    >"the SLA is literally just a middleman's 100k cut" Indeed, welcome to enterprise software.
jazzypants 21d ago
It's a pretty bad sign when you need to resort to this kind of comment stalking to try to find ammunition for a general argument. This user could be a complete con man, and it still wouldn't invalidate the core thesis of LLMs providing business value.
- hgcfeccg 21d ago
  [dead]
- magicalist 21d ago
  > you need to resort to this kind of comment stalking to try to find ammunition for a general argument It's not a general argument, they made specific claims, but vague posted (and implying everyone else must be crazy) to the point that the conversation is derailed by a bunch of people trying to figure out what they meant. > it still wouldn't invalidate the core thesis of LLMs providing business value. lol, no, "providing business value" is not what was claimed: >> What are people here doing exactly that they are not riding the gravy train and even reporting all these negative AI experiences?
- Capricorn2481 21d ago
  Hard disagree. It adds context to what they said.

brandonmenc 21d ago

I recently tried to encourage my smart, technical, but not-programmer friend to build an app using LLMs and he was just like, "I still have no idea where to even start." People talk a lot about how "real programmers" used to have to clean up or actually deploy everyone's half-baked MS Access app, and that sort of thing will probably still be the case for a while.

dofm 21d ago
> to clean up or actually deploy everyone's half-baked MS Access app So we are switching to LLMs to be fucking miserable in our jobs?
- entrope 21d ago
  The whole point of the MS Access reference is that similar situations have been tropes since at least the 1990s. Bad code generated by someone who doesn't know how to program well -- whether that person is supposed to be a professional programmer but is incompetent, or has a different job -- is nothing new, and neither is having competent programmers clean it up. LLMs probably generate more of it, but can also fix a lot of it, or at least patch it up. A year ago, LLMs were not useful for me as a programmer. Now they are: the models are better, they can use long contexts more effectively, and the harnesses are better at helping the models. Nowadays my job is mostly not programming, but LLMs let me organize and prepare tools in spare time rather than needing days or weeks of attention. I would not trust them on a 200k+ line project -- and Claude Opus 5 has issues even on 50k LOC projects -- but they absolutely can help given good direction and a narrow enough scope.
  - dofm 21d ago
    > The whole point of the MS Access reference is that similar situations have been tropes since at least the 1990s. I do actually understand that. I have done this very put the Access database on the web job myself. (FWIW I was well-paid for it and the firm I worked for earned a fortune, but this was in 1997)
  - entrope 21d ago

dofm 21d ago

Yes but it's cheaper? Of course they will do it by themselves. Because it's cheaper. I mean it's weird that we all imagine reasons why we're still relevant when we have set fire to the thing that made us indispensable. It's cheaper.

ElProlactin 20d ago
> I mean it's weird that we all imagine reasons why we're still relevant when we have set fire to the thing that made us indispensable. Very few things in this world are all-or-nothing, and not every purchasing decision is based on price alone. Do you always buy the cheapest meal? Car? When you renovate your house, do you always choose the cheapest contractor? Tons of developers will lose their jobs, and many more will find it hard to maintain the salaries/rates the industry has been accustomed to. This is already happening. The days where an average graduate from a run-of-the-mill CompSci program or even a coding bootcamp could sleepwalk into a $150,000+/year entry-level job are largely gone. The days where you have job security simply because you're a competent developer with 10 years of experience are in the process of going away. This does not mean that there is no subset of developers who cannot be successful in this market. There are people who are doing just fine because they know how to articulate their value and sell themselves to employers or clients.