4 ms·

TailTalk: A modern async user space AppleTalk stack with Rust and Tokio

77 points by zdw 20d ago

rrr_oh_man 20d ago
> AppleTalk is a discontinued proprietary suite of networking protocols developed by Apple Computer for their Macintosh computers. Wut? Can you explain for dumb people?
- gregsadetsky 20d ago
  AppleTalk is a protocol that was used on classic/vintage Macs (think: early/late 1980s, 1990s) to create local networks. The wikipedia page [0] has a good historical overview, including the parallel rise of ethernet / tcp/ip (which won). [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AppleTalk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AppleTalk
  - rrr_oh_man 20d ago
    How does TailTalk relate to this? Does it re-implement it?
    - gregsadetsky 20d ago
      Yep, looks like it - it's a from-scratch reimplementation that you can use in your own software to talk to devices on AppleTalk networks.
    - wpm 20d ago
      Using TailTalk on my modern Mac, I can expose a file share accessible to my Macintosh Plus, which has a simulated SCSI Ethernet adapter bridged to a Pi Pico 2W's wireless connection via a BlueSCSI.
- nxobject 20d ago
  If this comparison helps: before deprecation, the last practical use for AppleTalk was file sharing, e.g. legacy Time Machine. Apple dropped it, and encourages SMB and WebDAV.
  - arm 20d ago
    More information on that here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Filing_Protocol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Filing_Protocol
  - rrr_oh_man 19d ago
    Thank you, highly appreciated! Now everything makes sense. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AppleTalk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AppleTalk was very thorough on the protocol's history, but I was really puzzled by the purpose and why somebody would re-implement a discontinued protocol.
- eschaton 19d ago
  If you’re reading “Hacker” “News” either this sequence of English words should make sense to you or you should be competent enough to use a search engine and/or Wikipedia to easily learn what they mean.
codepoet80 20d ago
Have been waiting for something like this so I could decommission my old Raspberry Pi Netatalk solution. Thank you!
gregsadetsky 20d ago
Also, just learned of GlobalTalk ie people bridging their AppleTalk network to the Internet! https://marchintosh.com/globaltalk.html https://marchintosh.com/globaltalk.html
yjftsjthsd-h 20d ago
In light of https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-Drops-AppleTalk https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-Drops-AppleTalk , I'm a big fan of replacing the functionality in userspace:) (I've similarly thought that it would be helpful to port as many of Linux's filesystems to FUSE so when they get dropped users can just switch to that)
- nxobject 20d ago
  FUSE is great for portability, too – with some work you get macOS, Haiku, the BSDs...
- paulfurtado 20d ago
  Fwiw, if performance isn't paramount, you can have a lot of fun with LKL (linux kernel library) and UML (user mode Linux). UML is full Linux running as a userspace process. Tools like guestfish use it to modify disk images. UML can only run on Linux though. LKL lets you use the linux kernel as a library. However, only single threaded. But this allows you to use linux's tcp stack from userspace, or its filesystems, etc. LKL also works on non Linux platforms. These are definitely a different shape than what you're looking for, but they could help you keep the real linux implementations alive from userspace far into the future.
Arctessa 20d ago
Oh hey cool, didn't expect to see my project make Hacker News! I also develop little hardware devices to go with this stack if anyone is interested in embedded AppleTalk too. One is to connect your modern machine directly to LocalTalk networks, and the other is to emulate the now hard to find Apple network adapters for their 80s/90s printer line. I have a long discussion thread here which chronicles the development of this stack, and the two little hardware projects that go with it: https://68kmla.org/bb/threads/tashtalk-usb-tailtalk-and-inktalk-all-in-one-discussion-thread.52115 https://68kmla.org/bb/threads/tashtalk-usb-tailtalk-and-inkt....

77 points by zdw 20d ago

> AppleTalk is a discontinued proprietary suite of networking protocols developed by Apple Computer for their Macintosh computers. Wut? Can you explain for dumb people?

gregsadetsky 20d ago
AppleTalk is a protocol that was used on classic/vintage Macs (think: early/late 1980s, 1990s) to create local networks. The wikipedia page [0] has a good historical overview, including the parallel rise of ethernet / tcp/ip (which won). [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AppleTalk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AppleTalk
- rrr_oh_man 20d ago
  How does TailTalk relate to this? Does it re-implement it?
  - gregsadetsky 20d ago
    Yep, looks like it - it's a from-scratch reimplementation that you can use in your own software to talk to devices on AppleTalk networks.
  - wpm 20d ago
    Using TailTalk on my modern Mac, I can expose a file share accessible to my Macintosh Plus, which has a simulated SCSI Ethernet adapter bridged to a Pi Pico 2W's wireless connection via a BlueSCSI.
nxobject 20d ago
If this comparison helps: before deprecation, the last practical use for AppleTalk was file sharing, e.g. legacy Time Machine. Apple dropped it, and encourages SMB and WebDAV.
- arm 20d ago
  More information on that here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Filing_Protocol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Filing_Protocol
- rrr_oh_man 19d ago
  Thank you, highly appreciated! Now everything makes sense. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AppleTalk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AppleTalk was very thorough on the protocol's history, but I was really puzzled by the purpose and why somebody would re-implement a discontinued protocol.
eschaton 19d ago
If you’re reading “Hacker” “News” either this sequence of English words should make sense to you or you should be competent enough to use a search engine and/or Wikipedia to easily learn what they mean.

codepoet80 20d ago

Have been waiting for something like this so I could decommission my old Raspberry Pi Netatalk solution. Thank you!

gregsadetsky 20d ago

Also, just learned of GlobalTalk ie people bridging their AppleTalk network to the Internet! https://marchintosh.com/globaltalk.html https://marchintosh.com/globaltalk.html

yjftsjthsd-h 20d ago

In light of https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-Drops-AppleTalk https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-Drops-AppleTalk , I'm a big fan of replacing the functionality in userspace:) (I've similarly thought that it would be helpful to port as many of Linux's filesystems to FUSE so when they get dropped users can just switch to that)

nxobject 20d ago
FUSE is great for portability, too – with some work you get macOS, Haiku, the BSDs...
paulfurtado 20d ago
Fwiw, if performance isn't paramount, you can have a lot of fun with LKL (linux kernel library) and UML (user mode Linux). UML is full Linux running as a userspace process. Tools like guestfish use it to modify disk images. UML can only run on Linux though. LKL lets you use the linux kernel as a library. However, only single threaded. But this allows you to use linux's tcp stack from userspace, or its filesystems, etc. LKL also works on non Linux platforms. These are definitely a different shape than what you're looking for, but they could help you keep the real linux implementations alive from userspace far into the future.

Arctessa 20d ago

Oh hey cool, didn't expect to see my project make Hacker News! I also develop little hardware devices to go with this stack if anyone is interested in embedded AppleTalk too. One is to connect your modern machine directly to LocalTalk networks, and the other is to emulate the now hard to find Apple network adapters for their 80s/90s printer line. I have a long discussion thread here which chronicles the development of this stack, and the two little hardware projects that go with it: https://68kmla.org/bb/threads/tashtalk-usb-tailtalk-and-inktalk-all-in-one-discussion-thread.52115 https://68kmla.org/bb/threads/tashtalk-usb-tailtalk-and-inkt....