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I replied at: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49675110 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49675110 I'm well aware that Snap has this stuff in it, and I

by r_lee 28d ago

I replied at: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49675110 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49675110 I'm well aware that Snap has this stuff in it, and I understand it is used to teach and get kids interested about programming, I know. I still do not understand why you'd want to learn AI with Snap/Scratch. I don't think that's a very controversial opinion? If you just want to show kids some basic stuff okay sure, why not. By the time you'd want to mess with neural networks, I think it'd be best to just use Python or something, not wrestle with this... I appreciate you being so thorough with your references and the transcripts, and I think it's cool and interesting. I'm just saying that for me I don't get why I'd use this or try to do these complex things in this Scratch format rather than jumping on an actual language where I don't need to rely on these extensions or new features, and I'd be learning a real language that is actually used in the real world. And like, saying that Scratch is a toy language, I don't think that's a very controversial thing to say, so if I said the same thing about this, why be so offended over it? calling it BS, I can get that, but it was never directed towards anyone specifically, it was towards visual programming languages in general like Scratch. They serve a purpose, sure, but in my view, a very limited one. And I still don't see this being used like other languages for real stuff, aside from limited demos and exercises for kids. You can say I'm wrong, that's completely fine. But I think you're missing my point here.

DonHopkins 28d ago
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- r_lee 28d ago
  > You keep conspicuously avoiding answering my question about your definition of "_really_ programming", because it paints you into a corner and proves you are wrong, and you don't want to admit it. No. Almost anyone here would be fine with someone saying that using Scratch/Snap is not really programming in the same way that you'd use real languages to do stuff. It's obvious what it means. > At this point you're just desparately sealioning. You are intentionally pretending to be stupid, and I don't believe your act. No I am not, but are you pretending to be stupid here? Otherwise, why wouldn't almost all AI learning and demos be done with Snap if it's so amazing? Why is it only done in these conference recordings that have like 500 views on youtube? You're convinced that this Scratch-like "language" is somehow so incredible that you cannot criticize it or claim that it only fulfills a specific niche and that its not the same as actual general purpose languages that we use in the real world like Python, JS, C, C++, Go and so on. > Please stop right there. You are moving the goalposts. This is a discussion about Snap!, not Scratch. Same thing applies. I don't care how much this Scratch-like language is extended, it doesn't matter, my point still applies, it's not useful beyond a specific niche which seems to be to teach kids basic things about logic and programming, not actual software engineering. If you would've read what I wrote: > And like, saying that Scratch is a toy language, I don't think that's a very controversial thing to say, so if I said the same thing about this, why be so offended over it? calling it BS, I can get that, but it was never directed towards anyone specifically, it was towards visual programming languages in general like Scratch. They serve a purpose, sure, but in my view, a very limited one. And I still don't see this being used like other languages for real stuff, aside from limited demos and exercises for kids. If you read this part fully: "And like, saying that Scratch is a toy language, I don't think that's a very controversial thing to say, so if I said the same thing about this, why be so offended over it?" You would see that I am indeed talking about Snap, not just Scratch. Do I have to believe your "act"? Also, you seem to be consistently hostile, maybe because you're frustrated at the fact that I am being very reasonable here, and you're trying to force me into liking your language or whatever and admit that its super useful language and it's not working, because you're used to always having your way? I have gone out of my way to be reasonable with you and argue with you in good faith, and you keep bringing insults and accusations and keep implying that I'm a Nazi or something. Think about it, you're so upset over the fact that I don't consider a colored block drag and drop interface/system a real programming language that's used in the real world that you're doing all this and constantly attacking me and getting angry over my very reasonable arguments It's unhealthy and you should maybe ask one of those friends if what you're doing is reasonable or not. Maybe they can get you the help you need.
  - DonHopkins 27d ago
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by r_lee 28d ago

DonHopkins 28d ago

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r_lee 28d ago
> You keep conspicuously avoiding answering my question about your definition of "_really_ programming", because it paints you into a corner and proves you are wrong, and you don't want to admit it. No. Almost anyone here would be fine with someone saying that using Scratch/Snap is not really programming in the same way that you'd use real languages to do stuff. It's obvious what it means. > At this point you're just desparately sealioning. You are intentionally pretending to be stupid, and I don't believe your act. No I am not, but are you pretending to be stupid here? Otherwise, why wouldn't almost all AI learning and demos be done with Snap if it's so amazing? Why is it only done in these conference recordings that have like 500 views on youtube? You're convinced that this Scratch-like "language" is somehow so incredible that you cannot criticize it or claim that it only fulfills a specific niche and that its not the same as actual general purpose languages that we use in the real world like Python, JS, C, C++, Go and so on. > Please stop right there. You are moving the goalposts. This is a discussion about Snap!, not Scratch. Same thing applies. I don't care how much this Scratch-like language is extended, it doesn't matter, my point still applies, it's not useful beyond a specific niche which seems to be to teach kids basic things about logic and programming, not actual software engineering. If you would've read what I wrote: > And like, saying that Scratch is a toy language, I don't think that's a very controversial thing to say, so if I said the same thing about this, why be so offended over it? calling it BS, I can get that, but it was never directed towards anyone specifically, it was towards visual programming languages in general like Scratch. They serve a purpose, sure, but in my view, a very limited one. And I still don't see this being used like other languages for real stuff, aside from limited demos and exercises for kids. If you read this part fully: "And like, saying that Scratch is a toy language, I don't think that's a very controversial thing to say, so if I said the same thing about this, why be so offended over it?" You would see that I am indeed talking about Snap, not just Scratch. Do I have to believe your "act"? Also, you seem to be consistently hostile, maybe because you're frustrated at the fact that I am being very reasonable here, and you're trying to force me into liking your language or whatever and admit that its super useful language and it's not working, because you're used to always having your way? I have gone out of my way to be reasonable with you and argue with you in good faith, and you keep bringing insults and accusations and keep implying that I'm a Nazi or something. Think about it, you're so upset over the fact that I don't consider a colored block drag and drop interface/system a real programming language that's used in the real world that you're doing all this and constantly attacking me and getting angry over my very reasonable arguments It's unhealthy and you should maybe ask one of those friends if what you're doing is reasonable or not. Maybe they can get you the help you need.
- DonHopkins 27d ago
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