12 ms·

People say buying used car is a lottery, but so is buying a new released car model. I've seen people having to send their brand new shiny car to the shop on a r

People say buying used car is a lottery, but so is buying a new released car model. I've seen people having to send their brand new shiny car to the shop on a regular basis. The odds of getting a good experience are higher than blindly buying a second hand car with unknow history but not necessarily much better than buying a 20y old car (whose typical failure points are well known by that point) with complete documented history and knowing a good maintenance shop. Usually buying a new car that already went to a facelift is your best bet as it means it has been significantly long enough in the market to get most of its early gremlins known and sorted. Having said that I would now only consider buying a new car if I can pay it in one installment. I once loaned a new car and I regretted it immediately. Car was good but the amount I paid each month would have been better spent/invested elsewhere. I now drive a 20y old car that I paid cash last year. I checked before buying what were the main failure point (CVT transmission if not maintained properly) and bought a car with all the invoices and documentation checking it had been maintained properly and had her CVT oil changed. I expected a few things to fix (audio speaker, shocks) and negociated taking those into account. The car drive very well, is spatious and comfortable, I could afford replacing it if it died suddently. I would only consider a new car if I decided to go electric but gas price would need to multiply by 3 at the very least. I've seen people going EV then back to gas when they realized that after ~8 years of use their EV needed a battery replacement whose cost negated any saving on gas. I think battery price needs to go down for more EV adoption. Nobody wants to buy a second hand EV if it needs a usd10-15k for a new battery and an EV becomes pretty much unsellable at this point without a replaced battery.

Peanuts99 19d ago
I think you greatly overestimate how many 8-10 year old EVs will actually require replacement batteries. Barring a few models with poor engineering choices, most cars will still have 80% of their capacity after 10 years and won't have the downsides of having a 10 year old ICE engine with a variable record of maintenance.
- graemep 19d ago
  EVs that are 10 years old now will have a lower range than current models, AFAIK, so 80% of that might still be limiting. They will also be slower charging.
  - bdangubic 19d ago
    Very true on both accounts (I own a 12-year old Tesla) but for vast majority of EV owners this is simply not an issue.
    - graemep 19d ago
      Do the vast majority never drive a long distance? If you use a car purely for short journeys maybe. Is this common in the US? Everywhere I have lived most people do atleast some long (i.e. an ICE car needs refuelling at some point) some long trips.
      - minnowguy 19d ago
        I have friends with an EV that just rent an ICE car for road trips.
        bdangubic 19d ago
        exactly this. EVs are definitely not for road-trip-every-week families, I rent a car 4-5x per year (my other car is EV as well)
- ricardobayes 19d ago
  Is an EV with 80% battery still usable? I ask because phones with 80% batteries are practically e-waste, or urgently needing a replacement. It's not a fair comparison but that degraded battery in a phone is a problem, because the phone still requires a certain amount of power that the battery now struggles to provide and overheats, in many cases, causing secondary damage to other components (like the display).
  - hakfoo 19d ago
    Phone batteries have relatively little margin. If it lasts barely a full day at full capacity, going down to 80% means you can no longer reliably say "I'll charge it overnight". A car battery that lasted 300km new but now only 200km is still entirely adequate for a commuter with a 25km typical commute, and occasional 75km days out.
- qball 18d ago
  Perhaps, but remember that people have taken cues from their most-used battery-powered device. In this case, their phone (or laptop). A degraded battery in these devices leads to things like random power-offs or dropping to 1% randomly (the display does not correct itself as it assumes it's safer to round down), particularly when it's cold. When it shuts itself down, it clearly displays that it has power remaining, but the device communicates that it thinks it knows better than you. It is this bad software (and bad hardware) in these computing devices that ultimately what has led to EVs- new and especially used- being a tough sell far before the first one was ever released. The technology has proven fundamentally untrustworthy in low-stakes applications; why should it now be trusted in high-stakes applications? (The answer so far has been "give them an utterly ridiculous horsepower figure", which did work, but it turns out normal cars can do that pretty easily too, and they're cheaper.)
bryanlarsen 19d ago
> Nobody wants to buy a second hand EV if it needs a usd10-15k for a new battery and an EV becomes pretty much unsellable at this point without a replaced battery. Enough people believe this that such cars are the best deal right now, by far. You're more likely to have to replace a Toyota Engine by 200,000 miles (4%) than a Tesla Battery (3%). As long as the battery has liquid cooling (aka not the Leaf) and is relatively large (small batteries do more cycles per mile) and you do a battery health check at time of purchase to look for abuse, the battery will likely outlast the rest of the car, unless you're doing Taxi type milage. In which case you need to ensure you're getting an LFP battery, which should last close to a million miles.
- CobaltFire 19d ago
  Even Leaf batteries can be fine. A used Leaf might be the best deal going right now due to everyone being afraid of the battery, but if it hasn't been fast charged a ton its fine. Specifically the second gen "plus" models are great due to the larger battery meaning they have less wear. Its also, by far, the easiest EV to swap a battery on yourself. It might be the only one you can reasonably do in your driveway. As its 8 bolts, 3 plugs, and a quick ECU flash to get a new one going. Its also cheaper ($8k last I looked, for the 62kw model) than any other EV to swap the battery due to the lack of cooling. Not the perfect EV, but maybe the perfect shade tree mechanics EV.
vel0city 19d ago
You're so concerned about the odds of a used battery going bad and yet bought a used car with a CVT. Interesting life choices. I'd never buy a car with a traditional CVT. Used or new. They're so incredibly unreliable over time. I wouldn't mind picking up a used EV, assuming I can get a state of health report on the battery. Something usually pretty easy to do.
- prmoustache 19d ago
  I knew that CVT on mine would be reliable as long as periodic oil change has been done in due terms which was the case. I wouldn't have bought it had I not have access to the complete service history.
  - vel0city 19d ago
    > I knew that CVT on mine would be reliable It's a CVT on a car. It's unreliable. That's it's nature. I wouldn't have bought it straight from the factory given how much of a piece of junk they are.
- AngryData 19d ago
  If you don't rag on them and get the oil changed on schedule I haven't seen too many Nissan CVT problems. The ones I do are driven by people with a lead foot and always breaking traction and full throttle accelerating often. I usually just tell people to get their cvt fluid changed on schedule or sooner because its a steel belt and it does wear and shed metal particles.
  - vel0city 19d ago
    > I haven't seen too many Nissan CVT problems I've seen about a dozen, and I only know about a dozen Nissan owners. In fact, I've yet to meet a long time Nissan CVT owner who didn't have significant CVT related issues, even if they allegedly did the maintenance on time. Because... > its a steel belt and it does wear and shed metal particles. They're so worried about the wear on a battery meanwhile this has a part that's constantly producing metal wear particles inside the transmission practically by design. The transmission will fail, and it'll probably be pretty destructive when it goes. At least from the dozen or so examples I've personally seen.
pandaman 19d ago
In the US new cars come with a warranty and a lemon law. So if it goes to shop on a regular basis it can be replaced/refunded. And if it needs to go to the shop it's free and you get a loaner/free rental while it's there. Nothing like that is possible with a 20 y.o. car.
- prmoustache 19d ago
  While it is free under warranty it is still a huge annoyance.
  - pandaman 19d ago
    Compared to what, a used car? Certainly there is no better service for a used car out of warranty.
    - prmoustache 18d ago
      I as mentionning the odds of having issues and the myth of new = painless experience. Brand new models often have issues, hence my recommendation for models that have been in the market for several years already where early issue have been solved already.
- deleted 18d ago
  [deleted]
b3ing 19d ago
Do your research first, talk to a mechanic friend or relative about what cars are reliable. Get a late model of that or an older one with few miles. Stay away from CVT transmissions, avoid the first model of a car, go with a model that’s been around for years (plenty of parts and bugs worked out). Get the most basic version, and go for reliability over style. The worst part is dealing with dealers.
AngryData 19d ago
EV batteries are pretty reliable, however the suspension system and wheel bearings and physical brakes are more likely to be neglected because it sees less shop time despite usually weighing more. I think most of the bodies of EVs will rust out before most batteries are actually too degraded to use. Just like many ICE cars.

Peanuts99 19d ago

I think you greatly overestimate how many 8-10 year old EVs will actually require replacement batteries. Barring a few models with poor engineering choices, most cars will still have 80% of their capacity after 10 years and won't have the downsides of having a 10 year old ICE engine with a variable record of maintenance.

graemep 19d ago
EVs that are 10 years old now will have a lower range than current models, AFAIK, so 80% of that might still be limiting. They will also be slower charging.
- bdangubic 19d ago
  Very true on both accounts (I own a 12-year old Tesla) but for vast majority of EV owners this is simply not an issue.
  - graemep 19d ago
    Do the vast majority never drive a long distance? If you use a car purely for short journeys maybe. Is this common in the US? Everywhere I have lived most people do atleast some long (i.e. an ICE car needs refuelling at some point) some long trips.
    - minnowguy 19d ago
      I have friends with an EV that just rent an ICE car for road trips.
      - bdangubic 19d ago
        exactly this. EVs are definitely not for road-trip-every-week families, I rent a car 4-5x per year (my other car is EV as well)
ricardobayes 19d ago
Is an EV with 80% battery still usable? I ask because phones with 80% batteries are practically e-waste, or urgently needing a replacement. It's not a fair comparison but that degraded battery in a phone is a problem, because the phone still requires a certain amount of power that the battery now struggles to provide and overheats, in many cases, causing secondary damage to other components (like the display).
- hakfoo 19d ago
  Phone batteries have relatively little margin. If it lasts barely a full day at full capacity, going down to 80% means you can no longer reliably say "I'll charge it overnight". A car battery that lasted 300km new but now only 200km is still entirely adequate for a commuter with a 25km typical commute, and occasional 75km days out.
qball 18d ago
Perhaps, but remember that people have taken cues from their most-used battery-powered device. In this case, their phone (or laptop). A degraded battery in these devices leads to things like random power-offs or dropping to 1% randomly (the display does not correct itself as it assumes it's safer to round down), particularly when it's cold. When it shuts itself down, it clearly displays that it has power remaining, but the device communicates that it thinks it knows better than you. It is this bad software (and bad hardware) in these computing devices that ultimately what has led to EVs- new and especially used- being a tough sell far before the first one was ever released. The technology has proven fundamentally untrustworthy in low-stakes applications; why should it now be trusted in high-stakes applications? (The answer so far has been "give them an utterly ridiculous horsepower figure", which did work, but it turns out normal cars can do that pretty easily too, and they're cheaper.)

bryanlarsen 19d ago

> Nobody wants to buy a second hand EV if it needs a usd10-15k for a new battery and an EV becomes pretty much unsellable at this point without a replaced battery. Enough people believe this that such cars are the best deal right now, by far. You're more likely to have to replace a Toyota Engine by 200,000 miles (4%) than a Tesla Battery (3%). As long as the battery has liquid cooling (aka not the Leaf) and is relatively large (small batteries do more cycles per mile) and you do a battery health check at time of purchase to look for abuse, the battery will likely outlast the rest of the car, unless you're doing Taxi type milage. In which case you need to ensure you're getting an LFP battery, which should last close to a million miles.

CobaltFire 19d ago
Even Leaf batteries can be fine. A used Leaf might be the best deal going right now due to everyone being afraid of the battery, but if it hasn't been fast charged a ton its fine. Specifically the second gen "plus" models are great due to the larger battery meaning they have less wear. Its also, by far, the easiest EV to swap a battery on yourself. It might be the only one you can reasonably do in your driveway. As its 8 bolts, 3 plugs, and a quick ECU flash to get a new one going. Its also cheaper ($8k last I looked, for the 62kw model) than any other EV to swap the battery due to the lack of cooling. Not the perfect EV, but maybe the perfect shade tree mechanics EV.

vel0city 19d ago

You're so concerned about the odds of a used battery going bad and yet bought a used car with a CVT. Interesting life choices. I'd never buy a car with a traditional CVT. Used or new. They're so incredibly unreliable over time. I wouldn't mind picking up a used EV, assuming I can get a state of health report on the battery. Something usually pretty easy to do.

prmoustache 19d ago
I knew that CVT on mine would be reliable as long as periodic oil change has been done in due terms which was the case. I wouldn't have bought it had I not have access to the complete service history.
- vel0city 19d ago
  > I knew that CVT on mine would be reliable It's a CVT on a car. It's unreliable. That's it's nature. I wouldn't have bought it straight from the factory given how much of a piece of junk they are.
AngryData 19d ago
If you don't rag on them and get the oil changed on schedule I haven't seen too many Nissan CVT problems. The ones I do are driven by people with a lead foot and always breaking traction and full throttle accelerating often. I usually just tell people to get their cvt fluid changed on schedule or sooner because its a steel belt and it does wear and shed metal particles.
- vel0city 19d ago
  > I haven't seen too many Nissan CVT problems I've seen about a dozen, and I only know about a dozen Nissan owners. In fact, I've yet to meet a long time Nissan CVT owner who didn't have significant CVT related issues, even if they allegedly did the maintenance on time. Because... > its a steel belt and it does wear and shed metal particles. They're so worried about the wear on a battery meanwhile this has a part that's constantly producing metal wear particles inside the transmission practically by design. The transmission will fail, and it'll probably be pretty destructive when it goes. At least from the dozen or so examples I've personally seen.

pandaman 19d ago

In the US new cars come with a warranty and a lemon law. So if it goes to shop on a regular basis it can be replaced/refunded. And if it needs to go to the shop it's free and you get a loaner/free rental while it's there. Nothing like that is possible with a 20 y.o. car.

prmoustache 19d ago
While it is free under warranty it is still a huge annoyance.
- pandaman 19d ago
  Compared to what, a used car? Certainly there is no better service for a used car out of warranty.
  - prmoustache 18d ago
    I as mentionning the odds of having issues and the myth of new = painless experience. Brand new models often have issues, hence my recommendation for models that have been in the market for several years already where early issue have been solved already.
deleted 18d ago
[deleted]

b3ing 19d ago

Do your research first, talk to a mechanic friend or relative about what cars are reliable. Get a late model of that or an older one with few miles. Stay away from CVT transmissions, avoid the first model of a car, go with a model that’s been around for years (plenty of parts and bugs worked out). Get the most basic version, and go for reliability over style. The worst part is dealing with dealers.

AngryData 19d ago

EV batteries are pretty reliable, however the suspension system and wheel bearings and physical brakes are more likely to be neglected because it sees less shop time despite usually weighing more. I think most of the bodies of EVs will rust out before most batteries are actually too degraded to use. Just like many ICE cars.