4 ms·

Poison is a function of dosage. Water is a poison in a high enough dose. What’s you’re arguments it’s not a drug?

LoganDark 1mo ago
Alcohol requires an astronomical intake compared to most drugs, and I'd say the indiscriminate action and lack of any particular affinity is what makes it a poison as opposed to a drug. It is also generally assumed that alcohol is not exactly in the same category as drugs. ("drugs or alcohol" etc.)
- archonis 1mo ago
  That's purely because it's usage is accepted nearly as a default, and drug in common usage is most often a pejorative term if it doesn't refer to a medicinal context. Most people who use drug as a pejorative term also wouldn't use it to describe caffeine.
- adgjlsfhk1 1mo ago
  > Alcohol requires an astronomical intake compared to most drugs That's primarily because it's most commonly diluted 90%. Spirits (or everclear) have much lower intake required.
  - LoganDark 1mo ago
    I did not say alcoholic beverages, I said alcohol. Even pure ethanol still requires a far higher dosage than most drugs.
- aeonik 1mo ago
  But the "Active dose" to "lethal dose" ratio, aka "therapeutic index" of alcohol is pretty bad.
  - fc417fc802 1mo ago
    Don't you mean that it's quite good? It's easily more than an order of magnitude for many people (not sure about chronic alcoholics with high tolerance). How many medications can you 5x your dose and not have some risk of ending up in the hospital?
    - aeonik 1mo ago
      Heroin (IV) ~6x GHB ~8x Ethanol ~10x Methamphetamine ~10x DXM ~10x Cocaine ~15x MDMA ~16x Codeine ~20x Methadone ~20x Mescaline ~24x Flunitrazepam ~30x Ketamine ~40x Phenobarbital ~50x Nitrous oxide ~150x LSD ~1000x Cannabis/THC ~1000x or greater Citation: Gable RS. Comparison of acute lethal toxicity of commonly abused psychoactive substances. Addiction. 2004;99(6):686–696. doi:10.1111/j.1360-0443.2004.00744.x
      - fc417fc802 1mo ago
        Well given "therapeutic index" I had said "medication" as opposed to "commonly abused substances". I think your list skews heavily due to psychedelics tending not to be acutely toxic to the same extent as other chemical species. Statins for example are probably 10x to 20x (quick napkin math based on an animal study I found). Tylenol is 10x and is OTC. Personally I consider alcohol to be much safer than many other substances given the form it typically takes. Utterly irresponsible binge drinking aside, most people will suffer serious adverse effects long before they're in danger. Compare that with pills or injections where an OD can be entirely inadvertent even when observing basic common sense.
        aeonik 1mo ago
        Two things: 1. Half of those drugs on the list do have medicinal uses. Even methamphetamine and cocaine are used medicinally (admittedly rarely). 2. Tylenol poisoning is the leading reason for poison control center calls. >80,000 U.S. Poison Control exposure cases in 2021 involving acetaminophen or an acetaminophen-containing product. https://poisoncenters.org/news-alerts/13244374 https://poisoncenters.org/news-alerts/13244374
- krispyfi 1mo ago
  "drugs or alcohol" I usually encounter this framing from alcohol drinkers who are trying to be self-righteously judgemental about users of other drugs without getting hit by their own boomerang, so seeing it used for what is essentially the opposite opinion (i.e., that alcohol is worse than other drugs) is quite refreshing. I still disagree with it, though. Alcohol is clearly a drug.
  - joquarky 1mo ago
    Yep, alcohol is one of a very small number of recreational drugs that can kill addicted people who quit cold turkey. Even hospitals have to provide ethanol to heavy drinkers to prevent withdrawal.

Alcohol requires an astronomical intake compared to most drugs, and I'd say the indiscriminate action and lack of any particular affinity is what makes it a poison as opposed to a drug. It is also generally assumed that alcohol is not exactly in the same category as drugs. ("drugs or alcohol" etc.)

archonis 1mo ago
That's purely because it's usage is accepted nearly as a default, and drug in common usage is most often a pejorative term if it doesn't refer to a medicinal context. Most people who use drug as a pejorative term also wouldn't use it to describe caffeine.
adgjlsfhk1 1mo ago
> Alcohol requires an astronomical intake compared to most drugs That's primarily because it's most commonly diluted 90%. Spirits (or everclear) have much lower intake required.
- LoganDark 1mo ago
  I did not say alcoholic beverages, I said alcohol. Even pure ethanol still requires a far higher dosage than most drugs.
aeonik 1mo ago
But the "Active dose" to "lethal dose" ratio, aka "therapeutic index" of alcohol is pretty bad.
- fc417fc802 1mo ago
  Don't you mean that it's quite good? It's easily more than an order of magnitude for many people (not sure about chronic alcoholics with high tolerance). How many medications can you 5x your dose and not have some risk of ending up in the hospital?
  - aeonik 1mo ago
    Heroin (IV) ~6x GHB ~8x Ethanol ~10x Methamphetamine ~10x DXM ~10x Cocaine ~15x MDMA ~16x Codeine ~20x Methadone ~20x Mescaline ~24x Flunitrazepam ~30x Ketamine ~40x Phenobarbital ~50x Nitrous oxide ~150x LSD ~1000x Cannabis/THC ~1000x or greater Citation: Gable RS. Comparison of acute lethal toxicity of commonly abused psychoactive substances. Addiction. 2004;99(6):686–696. doi:10.1111/j.1360-0443.2004.00744.x
    - fc417fc802 1mo ago
      Well given "therapeutic index" I had said "medication" as opposed to "commonly abused substances". I think your list skews heavily due to psychedelics tending not to be acutely toxic to the same extent as other chemical species. Statins for example are probably 10x to 20x (quick napkin math based on an animal study I found). Tylenol is 10x and is OTC. Personally I consider alcohol to be much safer than many other substances given the form it typically takes. Utterly irresponsible binge drinking aside, most people will suffer serious adverse effects long before they're in danger. Compare that with pills or injections where an OD can be entirely inadvertent even when observing basic common sense.
      - aeonik 1mo ago
        Two things: 1. Half of those drugs on the list do have medicinal uses. Even methamphetamine and cocaine are used medicinally (admittedly rarely). 2. Tylenol poisoning is the leading reason for poison control center calls. >80,000 U.S. Poison Control exposure cases in 2021 involving acetaminophen or an acetaminophen-containing product. https://poisoncenters.org/news-alerts/13244374 https://poisoncenters.org/news-alerts/13244374
krispyfi 1mo ago
"drugs or alcohol" I usually encounter this framing from alcohol drinkers who are trying to be self-righteously judgemental about users of other drugs without getting hit by their own boomerang, so seeing it used for what is essentially the opposite opinion (i.e., that alcohol is worse than other drugs) is quite refreshing. I still disagree with it, though. Alcohol is clearly a drug.
- joquarky 1mo ago
  Yep, alcohol is one of a very small number of recreational drugs that can kill addicted people who quit cold turkey. Even hospitals have to provide ethanol to heavy drinkers to prevent withdrawal.