3 ms·

With a seemingly insurmountable workload - maintain an actually secure OS fork - for a small team, I wonder how GrapheneOS prioritizes things like messaging app

by mmooss 29d ago

With a seemingly insurmountable workload - maintain an actually secure OS fork - for a small team, I wonder how GrapheneOS prioritizes things like messaging apps? I'm not saying it's wrong at all; I am just interested in the thinking inside a project like that. I can imagine many reasons to devote resources to it: * A platform is only as good as its apps. If they want to grow GOS in the general public, it requires a good SMS/MMS messaging app. * LLM tools greatly reduce development costs, especially for well-known functions like text messaging. * Without secure messaging (as far as SMS/MMS can be secure), the platform security is greatly reduced. * GOS got a big donation, or has a volunteer that wants to do messaging ... But idk what I'm talking about. What is their approach?

ravenstine 29d ago
Well they're going to be shipping GOS on Motorola and I think some other devices, so basic things like the messaging app need to actually have some polish to them. I really like GrapheneOS overall as-is, but the messaging app felt like baby's first texting app. Not necessarily their fault since it's pretty much straight out of AOSP if I understand correctly. But any time I've installed GrapheneOS, the messaging app is one of two things I must replace every time (the other being the downright bad AOSP keyboard). If they fix(ed) their messaging app and their keyboard, then they've really eliminated a lot of potential complaints if a less tech-savvy crowd ends up buying future Motorolas.
flexagoon 28d ago
I you look at the commits of the new Messages app it's mostly made by 2 people whose Github profiles show them as employees of GrapheneOS and who are mostly committing to different system apps. So I assume they have a separate team of devs whose job it is to make the system apps. IIRC when they started first announced their replacement for the AOSP camera they said they hired a developer specifically for it.
microtonal 28d ago
A bunch of the AOSP apps feel like you have to rewrite them for modern standards now and then you can basically have them in maintenance mode for years. The AOSP messaging app has also lasted for 15+ (?) years and has basically had no maintenance from Google for many years. Modernizing these apps seems very high-impact. These are the very first things a new user sees and after the initial modernization, they should be relatively cheap to maintain.
- subscribed 28d ago
  > Messaging, high impact. Messaging can be replaced with one of the hundreds decent messaging apps. Unlike the backup app which is utterly unusable, untrustworthy and frankly crap. And CANNOT be replaced by anything else. As it stands it's impossible to have reliable backups in GOS.
  - drnick1 28d ago
    I know this isn't the solution you are looking for, but there is a fairly simple workaround and IMO it is superior: set up a Samba server or a Nextcloud instance, either at home or in the cloud, place it with behind a Wireguard tunnel, and don't store anything on the phone itself other than apps and things like maps for OsmAnd that can be redownloaded if lost. The Nextcloud app can automatically sync photos or other files too. If my phone were lost, stolen or destroyed, I would simply revoke its Wireguard key, buy a new Pixel, flash Graphene, and provision a new Wireguard key. Essentially no data of value would be lost, and restoring my apps and settings manually would take an hour tops. Admittedly, I don't use many apps, so YMMV.
    - subscribed 28d ago
      You're right, this is not a solution. And I'm syncing some of the app data already, but that is not a replacement for the OS apps. Most of the data cannot be synced like this.
      - fsflover 27d ago
        > Most of the data cannot be synced like this. Isn't it because of lack of the root access?
        subscribed 27d ago
        You could say that. The lack of root is only significant because unlike in other vendors the built-in backup doesn't work reliably, and you can't use third party software. But I'm very hopeful, recently they released this Messages update, they're working on introducing native RCS somehow (no idea how but I wish them well), and they recently made a first-class automated call recording.
deleted 28d ago
[deleted]
HybridStatAnim8 28d ago
GrapheneOS has made a big push to hire a bunch of experienced, talented app devs, and they have been slowly chipping away at Messaging for a few months. They now have the resources to take on the AOSP apps and resume with the GrapheneOS apps. The rest of the AOSP apps are also planned to be overhauled. They also plan to eventually support RCS in the Messaging app.
- mmooss 28d ago
  > GrapheneOS has made a big push to hire a bunch of experienced, talented app devs That's great. How can a FOSS project afford that? Where does GOS money come from? Did Daniel win the lottery?
  - Cider9986 28d ago
    They get most of their donations from cryptocurrency. Mostly small Monero donations but also Bitcoin and Ethereum. They have 14 devs 13 are payed in ETH and 1 in CAD. Iirc they said something like 2 million in donations in 2025. Vitalik Buterin may have donated at least some time ago. Proton donates double digits. Cape has donated around 100k https://www.cape.co/blog/cape-supports-grapheneos https://www.cape.co/blog/cape-supports-grapheneos and plans to donate 100k this year. There's estimated 500k users so if 25% donated 10 dollars a year that's 1.25 million.
    - mmooss 28d ago
      Thank you! Though I still wonder: > Iirc they said something like 2 million in donations in 2025. That's not enough for 14 devs, plus infrastructure, etc. > There's estimated 500k users so if 25% donated 10 dollars a year that's 1.25 million. Unfortunately, 25% would be extraordinary for any project. They should make their financing public (and maybe they do), being a non-profit and also asking people to trust them with their security. Funding provides influence: if 50% came from adtech or public surveillance companies (e.g., Flock, Palantir, etc.), then people would have questions.
      - 28d ago
grapheneos 28d ago
> as far as SMS/MMS can be secure We've announced our plan to add RCS with Messaging Layer Security (MLS) for E2EE compatible with Google Messages and iOS. > GOS got a big donation We receive large donations on an ongoing basis. > or has a volunteer that wants to do messaging Everyone doing substantial work on the project is paid to do it full time. We hired all the people doing large amounts of high quality volunteer work. We've moved on to a process of filtering candidates based on their CV, an interview process and small test projects.

by mmooss 29d ago

ravenstine 29d ago

Well they're going to be shipping GOS on Motorola and I think some other devices, so basic things like the messaging app need to actually have some polish to them. I really like GrapheneOS overall as-is, but the messaging app felt like baby's first texting app. Not necessarily their fault since it's pretty much straight out of AOSP if I understand correctly. But any time I've installed GrapheneOS, the messaging app is one of two things I must replace every time (the other being the downright bad AOSP keyboard). If they fix(ed) their messaging app and their keyboard, then they've really eliminated a lot of potential complaints if a less tech-savvy crowd ends up buying future Motorolas.

flexagoon 28d ago

I you look at the commits of the new Messages app it's mostly made by 2 people whose Github profiles show them as employees of GrapheneOS and who are mostly committing to different system apps. So I assume they have a separate team of devs whose job it is to make the system apps. IIRC when they started first announced their replacement for the AOSP camera they said they hired a developer specifically for it.

microtonal 28d ago

A bunch of the AOSP apps feel like you have to rewrite them for modern standards now and then you can basically have them in maintenance mode for years. The AOSP messaging app has also lasted for 15+ (?) years and has basically had no maintenance from Google for many years. Modernizing these apps seems very high-impact. These are the very first things a new user sees and after the initial modernization, they should be relatively cheap to maintain.

subscribed 28d ago
> Messaging, high impact. Messaging can be replaced with one of the hundreds decent messaging apps. Unlike the backup app which is utterly unusable, untrustworthy and frankly crap. And CANNOT be replaced by anything else. As it stands it's impossible to have reliable backups in GOS.
- drnick1 28d ago
  I know this isn't the solution you are looking for, but there is a fairly simple workaround and IMO it is superior: set up a Samba server or a Nextcloud instance, either at home or in the cloud, place it with behind a Wireguard tunnel, and don't store anything on the phone itself other than apps and things like maps for OsmAnd that can be redownloaded if lost. The Nextcloud app can automatically sync photos or other files too. If my phone were lost, stolen or destroyed, I would simply revoke its Wireguard key, buy a new Pixel, flash Graphene, and provision a new Wireguard key. Essentially no data of value would be lost, and restoring my apps and settings manually would take an hour tops. Admittedly, I don't use many apps, so YMMV.
  - subscribed 28d ago
    You're right, this is not a solution. And I'm syncing some of the app data already, but that is not a replacement for the OS apps. Most of the data cannot be synced like this.
    - fsflover 27d ago
      > Most of the data cannot be synced like this. Isn't it because of lack of the root access?
      - subscribed 27d ago
        You could say that. The lack of root is only significant because unlike in other vendors the built-in backup doesn't work reliably, and you can't use third party software. But I'm very hopeful, recently they released this Messages update, they're working on introducing native RCS somehow (no idea how but I wish them well), and they recently made a first-class automated call recording.

deleted 28d ago

[deleted]

HybridStatAnim8 28d ago

GrapheneOS has made a big push to hire a bunch of experienced, talented app devs, and they have been slowly chipping away at Messaging for a few months. They now have the resources to take on the AOSP apps and resume with the GrapheneOS apps. The rest of the AOSP apps are also planned to be overhauled. They also plan to eventually support RCS in the Messaging app.

mmooss 28d ago
> GrapheneOS has made a big push to hire a bunch of experienced, talented app devs That's great. How can a FOSS project afford that? Where does GOS money come from? Did Daniel win the lottery?
- Cider9986 28d ago
  They get most of their donations from cryptocurrency. Mostly small Monero donations but also Bitcoin and Ethereum. They have 14 devs 13 are payed in ETH and 1 in CAD. Iirc they said something like 2 million in donations in 2025. Vitalik Buterin may have donated at least some time ago. Proton donates double digits. Cape has donated around 100k https://www.cape.co/blog/cape-supports-grapheneos https://www.cape.co/blog/cape-supports-grapheneos and plans to donate 100k this year. There's estimated 500k users so if 25% donated 10 dollars a year that's 1.25 million.
  - mmooss 28d ago
    Thank you! Though I still wonder: > Iirc they said something like 2 million in donations in 2025. That's not enough for 14 devs, plus infrastructure, etc. > There's estimated 500k users so if 25% donated 10 dollars a year that's 1.25 million. Unfortunately, 25% would be extraordinary for any project. They should make their financing public (and maybe they do), being a non-profit and also asking people to trust them with their security. Funding provides influence: if 50% came from adtech or public surveillance companies (e.g., Flock, Palantir, etc.), then people would have questions.
    - 28d ago

grapheneos 28d ago

> as far as SMS/MMS can be secure We've announced our plan to add RCS with Messaging Layer Security (MLS) for E2EE compatible with Google Messages and iOS. > GOS got a big donation We receive large donations on an ongoing basis. > or has a volunteer that wants to do messaging Everyone doing substantial work on the project is paid to do it full time. We hired all the people doing large amounts of high quality volunteer work. We've moved on to a process of filtering candidates based on their CV, an interview process and small test projects.