3 ms·

... what does this have to do with propaganda? This is about the IDF keeping secret/private the details surrounding the deaths of 126 soldiers. jacquesm, you'

by tkahn6 14y ago

... what does this have to do with propaganda? This is about the IDF keeping secret/private the details surrounding the deaths of 126 soldiers. jacquesm, you're quite a valuable asset to this community but this is a reddit-level comment.

jacquesm 14y ago
> This is about the IDF keeping secret/private the details surrounding the deaths of 126 soldiers. No, this is about labelling them 'killed in action'. > jacquesm, you're quite a valuable asset to this community but this is a reddit-level comment. I don't think you're the arbiter about what is and is not a valuable asset to the community, I interpret your words as 'when I agree with you you are an asset, but when we disagree your comments are reddit level' (whatever reddit level is, for all I know it could be a compliment). I speak my mind without wondering whether you will agree with me or not, chances are that you'll find that at times I will say things you will disagree with, possibly even strongly. Chances are also that in those cases 50% of the times you're right and I'm wrong and vv. So before calling names you might want to consider the possibility that we simply disagree, and moreover that you could be wrong. Propaganda is when armies / governments do not report the truth because the truth is not as useful to them as fiction. Reporting these as KIA is better for the IDF, they have absolutely no problem labelling suicides for their enemies as such. If there was any truth to this not being propaganda then you'd expect the IDF to be equally circumspect when it comes to other deaths. Making the opposition look bad ('look, 126 people killed in action') is useful to them. That's the simplest explanation. Stigma attached to the suicides is a private affair, and does not come out from aggregate data. If they wanted to be even handed about it they could label the deaths as 'cause withheld, but non-combatant', or 'accidental'. You will also note that the blogger exposing this has not released any private information, all he's asking for is some basic honesty in aggregate numbers.
- tkahn6 14y ago
  > Reporting these as KIA is better for the IDF This is the crux of the issue. This a weak opinion. You jump immediately to 'propaganda' as the reason that soldiers who commit suicide are labeled KIA when there are many other possibilities. 1) Do you know if there are in fact different official classifications of active-duty soldiers deaths? 2) Do you know if they're labeled KIA for benefits purposes? 3) Wouldn't this make Israel's enemies look better since it lowers the civilians to combatant death ratio? You, without qualification, immediately assume this is a propaganda. That's the problem I have and that's why it's a weak comment. It has nothing to do with whether I agree with you or not.
  - jacquesm 14y ago
    It's simple: They're not killed in action. It isn't the truth. Suicide != action. They could choose not to do press releases on these soldiers rather than press releases that state a known-to-be-false cause of death.
    - tkahn6 14y ago
      I'm not contesting that it's innaccurate. You have no basis to assert that it's for propaganda purposes.
gus_massa 14y ago
The problem with the secrecy culture is that it not only protects the military secrets and the privacy of the dead, it also is useful to cover mistakes, abuses, bad conditions, corruption and systematic problems. Perhaps this is only a moron blogger, or perhaps there are some more problematic things to hide. Here in Argentina, in 1994 a conscript was reported as a deserter. Only after some investigation he was found dead inside the regiment because he was beaten unintentionally to dead as a punishment. In that kind of cases it's easy to use the "protection of his family" the cover the crime. Spanish version: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caso_Carrasco http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caso_Carrasco English autotranslation: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fes.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FCaso_Carrasco http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&tl...

by tkahn6 14y ago

jacquesm 14y ago

> This is about the IDF keeping secret/private the details surrounding the deaths of 126 soldiers. No, this is about labelling them 'killed in action'. > jacquesm, you're quite a valuable asset to this community but this is a reddit-level comment. I don't think you're the arbiter about what is and is not a valuable asset to the community, I interpret your words as 'when I agree with you you are an asset, but when we disagree your comments are reddit level' (whatever reddit level is, for all I know it could be a compliment). I speak my mind without wondering whether you will agree with me or not, chances are that you'll find that at times I will say things you will disagree with, possibly even strongly. Chances are also that in those cases 50% of the times you're right and I'm wrong and vv. So before calling names you might want to consider the possibility that we simply disagree, and moreover that you could be wrong. Propaganda is when armies / governments do not report the truth because the truth is not as useful to them as fiction. Reporting these as KIA is better for the IDF, they have absolutely no problem labelling suicides for their enemies as such. If there was any truth to this not being propaganda then you'd expect the IDF to be equally circumspect when it comes to other deaths. Making the opposition look bad ('look, 126 people killed in action') is useful to them. That's the simplest explanation. Stigma attached to the suicides is a private affair, and does not come out from aggregate data. If they wanted to be even handed about it they could label the deaths as 'cause withheld, but non-combatant', or 'accidental'. You will also note that the blogger exposing this has not released any private information, all he's asking for is some basic honesty in aggregate numbers.

tkahn6 14y ago
> Reporting these as KIA is better for the IDF This is the crux of the issue. This a weak opinion. You jump immediately to 'propaganda' as the reason that soldiers who commit suicide are labeled KIA when there are many other possibilities. 1) Do you know if there are in fact different official classifications of active-duty soldiers deaths? 2) Do you know if they're labeled KIA for benefits purposes? 3) Wouldn't this make Israel's enemies look better since it lowers the civilians to combatant death ratio? You, without qualification, immediately assume this is a propaganda. That's the problem I have and that's why it's a weak comment. It has nothing to do with whether I agree with you or not.
- jacquesm 14y ago
  It's simple: They're not killed in action. It isn't the truth. Suicide != action. They could choose not to do press releases on these soldiers rather than press releases that state a known-to-be-false cause of death.
  - tkahn6 14y ago
    I'm not contesting that it's innaccurate. You have no basis to assert that it's for propaganda purposes.

gus_massa 14y ago

The problem with the secrecy culture is that it not only protects the military secrets and the privacy of the dead, it also is useful to cover mistakes, abuses, bad conditions, corruption and systematic problems. Perhaps this is only a moron blogger, or perhaps there are some more problematic things to hide. Here in Argentina, in 1994 a conscript was reported as a deserter. Only after some investigation he was found dead inside the regiment because he was beaten unintentionally to dead as a punishment. In that kind of cases it's easy to use the "protection of his family" the cover the crime. Spanish version: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caso_Carrasco http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caso_Carrasco English autotranslation: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fes.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FCaso_Carrasco http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&tl...