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from someone who can remember how they even got into programming: it's because this is BS and just a toy, it's got no connection to the real world. from the a

by r_lee 1mo ago

from someone who can remember how they even got into programming: it's because this is BS and just a toy, it's got no connection to the real world. from the angle of someone trying to make some toy to teach programming, maybe in their head it's like: oh this is so simple and easy it should work perfectly for teaching but from my experience, most of my learning came from "whats this?" "how do i make a thing like this?" this doesn't provide a way to accomplish that or to promote curiosity I think same applies to basic CS courses teaching bits and bytes, it's not really useful to know what bits and bytes are if you don't understand what they're even used for or why you should know what they are however, this is just my subjective point of view, maybe it differs for others.

deleted 1mo ago
[deleted]
DonHopkins 1mo ago
Fair that your path worked differently for you. But "no connection to the real world" is hard to sustain once you look at what people actually build with Snap!/Scratch. The ecosystem is full of bridges to physical stuff: Cameras, microphones, audio, pen plotters, 3D (BeetleBlocks). Snap! 12.1 (video from a few days ago) adds body-language recognition, Bauhaus-style shape compositions, first-class Processes, translation updates: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ID7wYxzHUAc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ID7wYxzHUAc Arduino / micro:bit / boards (Snap4Arduino, MicroBlocks, many hardware libraries): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ltzlzk_zkys&list=PL5OeDsbY1ElLa5FvQoejTFddsVZpp8Nah https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ltzlzk_zkys&list=PL5OeDsbY1E... Robots (Finch, Hummingbird, Lego NXT, drones): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_0EqIbTlkk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_0EqIbTlkk Sewing machines (TurtleStitch -- embroidery from blocks; one of my favorites): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6ra5ThxkrE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6ra5ThxkrE Web APIs and IoT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_P7MoBG250 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_P7MoBG250 ML/AI and digital fabrication (Ken Kahn's eCraft2Learn): https://project.ecraft2learn.eu/ https://project.ecraft2learn.eu/ The "what's this? how do I make a thing like this?" curiosity you describe is exactly how a lot of people get pulled in -- making something move, blink, sing, or stitch on a machine they can see, rather than learning abstract syntax first. Blocks are the on-ramp; the project is the motivation. Different audience than yours, maybe. But "just a toy walled off from reality" undersells what this community has been doing for decades. Snap! also teaches real computer science at college level while staying accessible to kids -- not a stripped-down kiddie language. Brian Harvey: "Snap! is Scheme disguised as Scratch" (though he notes the original intent was closer to Logo disguised as Scratch): https://forum.snap.berkeley.edu/t/hygienic-macros/3258/6 https://forum.snap.berkeley.edu/t/hygienic-macros/3258/6 Re alanbernstein's point about keyboard vs GUI: Snap! is not keyboard-hostile. It has a keyboard editor for scripts -- build and edit whole scripts without the mouse, block search from the keyboard, infix arithmetic expressions typed left-to-right. Manual chapter: https://docs.snap.berkeley.edu/user-interface-elements/#sec-keyboard-editing https://docs.snap.berkeley.edu/user-interface-elements/#sec-... Demo (typing formulas from the keyboard): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahHAl3p3gEU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahHAl3p3gEU Full IDE accessibility (screen readers etc.) is still a work in progress; Jens and Brian document what's there now: https://github.com/jmoenig/Snap/issues/1498 https://github.com/jmoenig/Snap/issues/1498
- r_lee 1mo ago
  I guess I just can't relate to it, because I was fascinated with the computing itself, not just getting from A to B as quickly as possible so it wasn't the project that was the motivation, it was figuring out how to do it for real, and getting closer to expertise in programming for example the TurtleStitch, I don't know how to say this exactly, but to me it doesn't strike as something that'd interest people who want to get into programming, but is more like a way to showcase how to do machined embroidery in an accessible way I might be totally wrong, but my problem seems to be that a lot of this is just about showing off the capabilities of Snap, but it's not really something I would've engaged with for example? like almost as if the ecosystem simply serves to show off Snap and thus misses the mark? like Snap doesn't really provide a way to understand how stuff is actually done except for maybe simple logic. So I don't see how it'd be very useful for e.g. learning CS when it's not really something you'd see in the real world, i.e. you're learning a learning platform and some basic concepts I guess my point is like, if it's not really something that's used in the real world, unlike say JS or Python, why use it instead of getting up to speed in a real language? again, it could be that I simply don't get it, or that I'm not the target audience, but I feel like there's a reason why these haven't really taken off, and IMO there's no reason why they would need to, because they serve a very specific niche
  - DonHopkins 1mo ago
    [dead]
    - rmunn 1mo ago
      Where the heck did the sudden vitriol come from? I went through the HN comments of the person you're replying to and found nothing like the kind of thing you're replying to in the first several pages. If he said something months ago that you're bringing up, you might want to link to it, because at it stands it feels like you just suddenly started ranting about politics in the middle of a conversation about teaching kids to code. Which is... kind of offputting, you know? Could we please try to follow the guidelines and not have flamewars and partisan dispute? Especially ones that seem to spring up out of nowhere, reviving conversations that are months old? I'm here to learn about cool new projects; if I want to read about politics or personal drama I have pretty much the entire rest of the Internet to do so.
ModernMech 1mo ago
Here's how teaching kids goes without scratch: "This is python, we use it to do professional development work. Here's VS code, we use it to do professional development work. Let's learn them." 6 year olds: "Okay!" Proceeds to mangle whitespace, variable names, scope, indexing, ==, forgets :, doesn't understand what def is, even after they get all that the program is basically "hello world" print to console. 6 year olds: "Programming is hard and frustrating with little payoff, I don't want to do this anymore" The one 6 year who who will grow up to be a greybeard sysadmin "This stuff is great! I can't wait to learn more!" Teachers: "I have no idea what I'm doing, the devs keep saying how Python is supposed to be easy and it's built for learning, but I'm just as confused as the kids." -- Here's how teaching kids goes with scratch: "This is scratch, you snape these colored shapes together and they do things like make this character move" 6 year olds: "Okay!" Proceeds to make games and stories with graphics, sounds and interaction, which they share with their friends, fully editable and runnable in a web environment with zero setup: https://scratch.mit.edu https://scratch.mit.edu 6 year olds: "Wow programming is fun! I can't wait to learn more!" The one 6 year who who will grow up to be a greybeard sysadmin "I agree this stuff is great! I can't wait to learn more!" Teachers: "It wasn't hard to get up and running with scratch, it's very easy to teach and I get it."

by r_lee 1mo ago

deleted 1mo ago

[deleted]

DonHopkins 1mo ago

Fair that your path worked differently for you. But "no connection to the real world" is hard to sustain once you look at what people actually build with Snap!/Scratch. The ecosystem is full of bridges to physical stuff: Cameras, microphones, audio, pen plotters, 3D (BeetleBlocks). Snap! 12.1 (video from a few days ago) adds body-language recognition, Bauhaus-style shape compositions, first-class Processes, translation updates: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ID7wYxzHUAc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ID7wYxzHUAc Arduino / micro:bit / boards (Snap4Arduino, MicroBlocks, many hardware libraries): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ltzlzk_zkys&list=PL5OeDsbY1ElLa5FvQoejTFddsVZpp8Nah https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ltzlzk_zkys&list=PL5OeDsbY1E... Robots (Finch, Hummingbird, Lego NXT, drones): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_0EqIbTlkk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_0EqIbTlkk Sewing machines (TurtleStitch -- embroidery from blocks; one of my favorites): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6ra5ThxkrE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6ra5ThxkrE Web APIs and IoT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_P7MoBG250 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_P7MoBG250 ML/AI and digital fabrication (Ken Kahn's eCraft2Learn): https://project.ecraft2learn.eu/ https://project.ecraft2learn.eu/ The "what's this? how do I make a thing like this?" curiosity you describe is exactly how a lot of people get pulled in -- making something move, blink, sing, or stitch on a machine they can see, rather than learning abstract syntax first. Blocks are the on-ramp; the project is the motivation. Different audience than yours, maybe. But "just a toy walled off from reality" undersells what this community has been doing for decades. Snap! also teaches real computer science at college level while staying accessible to kids -- not a stripped-down kiddie language. Brian Harvey: "Snap! is Scheme disguised as Scratch" (though he notes the original intent was closer to Logo disguised as Scratch): https://forum.snap.berkeley.edu/t/hygienic-macros/3258/6 https://forum.snap.berkeley.edu/t/hygienic-macros/3258/6 Re alanbernstein's point about keyboard vs GUI: Snap! is not keyboard-hostile. It has a keyboard editor for scripts -- build and edit whole scripts without the mouse, block search from the keyboard, infix arithmetic expressions typed left-to-right. Manual chapter: https://docs.snap.berkeley.edu/user-interface-elements/#sec-keyboard-editing https://docs.snap.berkeley.edu/user-interface-elements/#sec-... Demo (typing formulas from the keyboard): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahHAl3p3gEU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahHAl3p3gEU Full IDE accessibility (screen readers etc.) is still a work in progress; Jens and Brian document what's there now: https://github.com/jmoenig/Snap/issues/1498 https://github.com/jmoenig/Snap/issues/1498

r_lee 1mo ago
I guess I just can't relate to it, because I was fascinated with the computing itself, not just getting from A to B as quickly as possible so it wasn't the project that was the motivation, it was figuring out how to do it for real, and getting closer to expertise in programming for example the TurtleStitch, I don't know how to say this exactly, but to me it doesn't strike as something that'd interest people who want to get into programming, but is more like a way to showcase how to do machined embroidery in an accessible way I might be totally wrong, but my problem seems to be that a lot of this is just about showing off the capabilities of Snap, but it's not really something I would've engaged with for example? like almost as if the ecosystem simply serves to show off Snap and thus misses the mark? like Snap doesn't really provide a way to understand how stuff is actually done except for maybe simple logic. So I don't see how it'd be very useful for e.g. learning CS when it's not really something you'd see in the real world, i.e. you're learning a learning platform and some basic concepts I guess my point is like, if it's not really something that's used in the real world, unlike say JS or Python, why use it instead of getting up to speed in a real language? again, it could be that I simply don't get it, or that I'm not the target audience, but I feel like there's a reason why these haven't really taken off, and IMO there's no reason why they would need to, because they serve a very specific niche
- DonHopkins 1mo ago
  [dead]
  - rmunn 1mo ago
    Where the heck did the sudden vitriol come from? I went through the HN comments of the person you're replying to and found nothing like the kind of thing you're replying to in the first several pages. If he said something months ago that you're bringing up, you might want to link to it, because at it stands it feels like you just suddenly started ranting about politics in the middle of a conversation about teaching kids to code. Which is... kind of offputting, you know? Could we please try to follow the guidelines and not have flamewars and partisan dispute? Especially ones that seem to spring up out of nowhere, reviving conversations that are months old? I'm here to learn about cool new projects; if I want to read about politics or personal drama I have pretty much the entire rest of the Internet to do so.

ModernMech 1mo ago

Here's how teaching kids goes without scratch: "This is python, we use it to do professional development work. Here's VS code, we use it to do professional development work. Let's learn them." 6 year olds: "Okay!" Proceeds to mangle whitespace, variable names, scope, indexing, ==, forgets :, doesn't understand what def is, even after they get all that the program is basically "hello world" print to console. 6 year olds: "Programming is hard and frustrating with little payoff, I don't want to do this anymore" The one 6 year who who will grow up to be a greybeard sysadmin "This stuff is great! I can't wait to learn more!" Teachers: "I have no idea what I'm doing, the devs keep saying how Python is supposed to be easy and it's built for learning, but I'm just as confused as the kids." -- Here's how teaching kids goes with scratch: "This is scratch, you snape these colored shapes together and they do things like make this character move" 6 year olds: "Okay!" Proceeds to make games and stories with graphics, sounds and interaction, which they share with their friends, fully editable and runnable in a web environment with zero setup: https://scratch.mit.edu https://scratch.mit.edu 6 year olds: "Wow programming is fun! I can't wait to learn more!" The one 6 year who who will grow up to be a greybeard sysadmin "I agree this stuff is great! I can't wait to learn more!" Teachers: "It wasn't hard to get up and running with scratch, it's very easy to teach and I get it."