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> Iran can't have a nuclear weapon. It's an intolerable premise and if the price to be paid is global oil catastrophe it's a price well worth paying Says you.

> Iran can't have a nuclear weapon. It's an intolerable premise and if the price to be paid is global oil catastrophe it's a price well worth paying Says you. All other nuclear nations behave (even Pakistan and India, which are at each other throat all the time). What makes you think that Iran won't? It will also have Russia and China keep a lid on them, same as North Korea. And I don't buy the "Iran is different" gospel. North Korea and China have completely different mindsets than the western world and still play ball. Additionally, if Iran really is that adamant in getting nukes, I can see them asking some enriched material to Russia as a payment to the 100s if not 1000s of drones they are giving them. They share a "land" border through the Caspian sea and smuggling a few 10s of kilos of enriched material would be relatively easy. Finally, it is not a good proposition if the hypotethical benefits will be reaped by US/Israel while the suffering is globally spread.

ericmay 15d ago
> They share a "land" border through the Caspian sea and smuggling a few 10s of kilos of enriched material would be relatively easy. I'm not a nuclear weapons expert but from what I understand the United States and others are pretty easily able to identify where enriched material comes from. Also we probably have eyes on the material in general and can see where it is being moved. It has to be stored in places, put into a missile, &c. But if your argument were to be taken to be correct you're also highlighting the problem with the JCPOA. Well, one of them at least.
- LtWorf 15d ago
  > the United States and others are pretty easily able to identify where enriched material comes from Maybe, if you let them inspect the material…
  - ericmay 15d ago
    Well that's a big IF. Iran wasn't allowing inspections, also we shouldn't need a special deal with Iran or else they build nuclear bombs and try to kill people. But what I meant was that if a weapon was used we'd be able to identify the signature of the material used and pinpoint the exact location on earth that it came from. In other words, if Russia "easily" (again that's an another feather in the cap agains the JCPOA) sent material to Iran and they used it and built a bomb and used it we'd know it came from a Russian mine. Of course they could maybe steal material from somewhere else and then Russia could transport that but hey, look where we're at. We've got Russia who invaded Ukraine supplying nuclear material to Iran to build a bomb. Maybe we shouldn't be on team Russia/Iran yea?
    - autoexec 15d ago
      > Iran wasn't allowing inspections, That isn't what the International Atomic Energy Agency said https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/iaea-confirms-iran-is-meeting-its-commitments-under-nuclear-deal/2017/11/13/8d9b9fb0-c893-11e7-b0cf-7689a9f2d84e_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/iaea-... At least before Trump started playing games Iran was in compliance
      - ericmay 15d ago
        Sorry I can't view the article b/c of the paywall also because Jeff Bezos sucks. But the Iranians aren't stupid, they just moved the research to "military sites" and then denied access. Sometimes I think the UN and some of these agencies are run by people who grew up in very manicured gardens with their fancy law degrees and filet mignon and can't use their imagination to understand how someone might deceive them lol. But this still begs the question - why do we need to have some sort of deal in the first place? Why does Iran of all countries need to have this special treatment where they threaten to build nuclear weapons unless we all do or give them something. Other countries don't do that.
        autoexec 15d ago
        > why do we need to have some sort of deal in the first place? Why does Iran of all countries need to have this special treatment where they threaten to build nuclear weapons unless we all do or give them something. Iran signed the Non-Proliferation Treaty ages ago which put certain limits on what they could do. Other countries had growing concerns that Iran wasn't living up to that treaty, and those violations (plus some other stuff) resulted in a bunch of sanctions being placed on Iran. Eventually Iran got a president who requested an international agreement that would ease both the sanctions Iran was under and the fears other countries had over their nuclear program. After lots and lots of negotiations they settled on the Joint Plan of Action which did a pretty good job. I don't think Iran was being treated as all that special here and we'd see similar events play out if any country under the NPT started building up its nuclear program, especially if other countries thought that country was unstable/terroristy enough that the idea of them having a bunch of nukes was extra scary AND they also felt an agreement could be reached that would help make them less frightened.
andriy_koval 15d ago
> even Pakistan and India, which are at each other throat all the time Iran is way more aggressive in spreading influence in region (hoothis, hezbollah, hamas, Syria, Iraq, denying Israel existence).
- nish__ 15d ago
  [flagged]
  - andriy_koval 15d ago
    Yemen is far from Israel, the same as Syria is not tied to Israel. Iran confronts other Suni regional powers in addition to Israel.
  - 737min 15d ago
    There is no evidence Israel killed 70,000 innocents. But there is strong evidence Iran killed 40,000 demonstrators and Hamas killed 1,000’s innocent.
    - IAmBroom 15d ago
      There is evidence, unless you are of the genocidal cult that believes every Palestinian born is automatically a terrorist. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Gaza_war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Gaza_war
      - andriy_koval 15d ago
        Not every, but I hope it is hard to deny that concentration of radicalized members of Hamas is very high in that area, they historically use civilians as human shield, thus casualties.
      - 737min 15d ago
        Wikipedia not evidence but result of coordinated pro-Hamas campaign, 8 editors banned by them https://americandreaming.substack.com/p/wikipedias-islamist-vandals https://americandreaming.substack.com/p/wikipedias-islamist-...
throwitaway222 15d ago
Because they'll be the first to use it to kill millions since the 1940s
- mitxela 15d ago
  Plenty of nations have killed millions since the 1940s.
boplicity 15d ago
> All other nuclear nations behave Russia, China, the U.S., North Korea, Israel. These are all countries that absolutely do not behave. Each commits atrocities on a regular basis. Them having nukes makes accountability much more difficult. Just to be clear: the current situation is a huge mess caused by one deranged leader.
- ericmay 15d ago
  > Just to be clear: the current situation is a huge mess caused by one deranged leader. Sorry that's just dead wrong. This doesn't happen in a vacuum. I mean you could simply add Netanyahu and make your statement incorrect here. Nevermind all the other actors, Iran's deranged death cult, and more.
  - pasquinelli 15d ago
    no, it is just trump. netanyahu's been pushing for this for decades, but prior presidents just didn't let themselves be pushed. as for iran, they've been the picture of restraint since trump's first term.
    - rayiner 15d ago
      > as for iran, they've been the picture of restraint since trump's first term. They tried to assassinate Trump, before he did any of this!
      - pasquinelli 15d ago
        my reflex was to think that sounds like a lie israel would tell to get trump to go to war with iran, but i realize my reflexes aren't always right, so i looked it up and it turns out, yes, it's obviously an israeli lie and the only reason you'd believe it is because you really want to.
        rayiner 15d ago
        There was DOJ prosecution under the Biden administration: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cx28x187rmko https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cx28x187rmko. I'm going to believe Biden's DOJ over Iran...
qlte 15d ago
> And I don't buy the "Iran is different" gospel. It's funny reading literature from the mega hawks in US politics during the Cold War. Descriptions of the Soviet leadership basically word for word use the same apocalyptic terms used for the ayatollahs/IRGC by current neocons about Iran. Just swap in "Islamist" for "Communist" as the current ideology that makes any kind of realpolitik impossible. "These leaders aren't rational like previous adversaries, they don't fear annihilation, in fact they want catastrophe to prove their own fatalist belief system. There can be no negotiation with this sort of enemy, their singular goal is our destruction even at the cost of their own lives." It's always different this time, and all assumptions about self-serving human nature need to be thrown out the window. Anyone who thinks force isn't the only solution is a naively deluded suicidal peacenik. All out war right now on our terms is the only rational way to avoid world destruction.
stickfigure 15d ago
> All other nuclear nations behave [...] What makes you think that Iran won't? Iran already misbehaves, exporting violence to the entire region. How do you think they are going to act when they have nuclear weapons?
- goatlover 15d ago
  The same as Israel.
rayiner 15d ago
> All other nuclear nations behave (even Pakistan and India, which are at each other throat all the time). What makes you think that Iran won't? Because Iran's leadership is actually crazy.
- corford 15d ago
  And North Korea?
  - rayiner 15d ago
    Crazy, but not universalist so they can only harm themselves.
- martythemaniak 15d ago
  For real, you just gotta go on Haqq Social and it's just endless deranged AI slop, these people are crazy.
- deleted 15d ago
  [deleted]
- goatlover 15d ago
  The same could be said for the current US leadership. All sorts of crazy sounding stuff comes from the White House. Imagine being Canadian.
eklavya 15d ago
I keep wondering about this western worldview where they keep equating a militant failed state with the largest democracy in the world. I can't fathom why they do it.
LorenPechtel 15d ago
And you think Iran will get a bomb and be peaceful? They're already backing multiple genocides. A bomb is immunity from retaliation--until Israel can't tolerate the situation anymore and blows them off the map.
LorenPechtel 15d ago
And Russian Roulette is 100% safe. Just ask anyone who has played it, they weren't hurt. (In other words, just because we haven't blown ourselves up yet doesn't mean it's safe to have nukes in the hands of lunatics.)

ericmay 15d ago

> They share a "land" border through the Caspian sea and smuggling a few 10s of kilos of enriched material would be relatively easy. I'm not a nuclear weapons expert but from what I understand the United States and others are pretty easily able to identify where enriched material comes from. Also we probably have eyes on the material in general and can see where it is being moved. It has to be stored in places, put into a missile, &c. But if your argument were to be taken to be correct you're also highlighting the problem with the JCPOA. Well, one of them at least.

LtWorf 15d ago
> the United States and others are pretty easily able to identify where enriched material comes from Maybe, if you let them inspect the material…
- ericmay 15d ago
  Well that's a big IF. Iran wasn't allowing inspections, also we shouldn't need a special deal with Iran or else they build nuclear bombs and try to kill people. But what I meant was that if a weapon was used we'd be able to identify the signature of the material used and pinpoint the exact location on earth that it came from. In other words, if Russia "easily" (again that's an another feather in the cap agains the JCPOA) sent material to Iran and they used it and built a bomb and used it we'd know it came from a Russian mine. Of course they could maybe steal material from somewhere else and then Russia could transport that but hey, look where we're at. We've got Russia who invaded Ukraine supplying nuclear material to Iran to build a bomb. Maybe we shouldn't be on team Russia/Iran yea?
  - autoexec 15d ago
    > Iran wasn't allowing inspections, That isn't what the International Atomic Energy Agency said https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/iaea-confirms-iran-is-meeting-its-commitments-under-nuclear-deal/2017/11/13/8d9b9fb0-c893-11e7-b0cf-7689a9f2d84e_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/iaea-... At least before Trump started playing games Iran was in compliance
    - ericmay 15d ago
      Sorry I can't view the article b/c of the paywall also because Jeff Bezos sucks. But the Iranians aren't stupid, they just moved the research to "military sites" and then denied access. Sometimes I think the UN and some of these agencies are run by people who grew up in very manicured gardens with their fancy law degrees and filet mignon and can't use their imagination to understand how someone might deceive them lol. But this still begs the question - why do we need to have some sort of deal in the first place? Why does Iran of all countries need to have this special treatment where they threaten to build nuclear weapons unless we all do or give them something. Other countries don't do that.
      - autoexec 15d ago
        > why do we need to have some sort of deal in the first place? Why does Iran of all countries need to have this special treatment where they threaten to build nuclear weapons unless we all do or give them something. Iran signed the Non-Proliferation Treaty ages ago which put certain limits on what they could do. Other countries had growing concerns that Iran wasn't living up to that treaty, and those violations (plus some other stuff) resulted in a bunch of sanctions being placed on Iran. Eventually Iran got a president who requested an international agreement that would ease both the sanctions Iran was under and the fears other countries had over their nuclear program. After lots and lots of negotiations they settled on the Joint Plan of Action which did a pretty good job. I don't think Iran was being treated as all that special here and we'd see similar events play out if any country under the NPT started building up its nuclear program, especially if other countries thought that country was unstable/terroristy enough that the idea of them having a bunch of nukes was extra scary AND they also felt an agreement could be reached that would help make them less frightened.

andriy_koval 15d ago

> even Pakistan and India, which are at each other throat all the time Iran is way more aggressive in spreading influence in region (hoothis, hezbollah, hamas, Syria, Iraq, denying Israel existence).

nish__ 15d ago
[flagged]
- andriy_koval 15d ago
  Yemen is far from Israel, the same as Syria is not tied to Israel. Iran confronts other Suni regional powers in addition to Israel.
- 737min 15d ago
  There is no evidence Israel killed 70,000 innocents. But there is strong evidence Iran killed 40,000 demonstrators and Hamas killed 1,000’s innocent.
  - IAmBroom 15d ago
    There is evidence, unless you are of the genocidal cult that believes every Palestinian born is automatically a terrorist. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Gaza_war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Gaza_war
    - andriy_koval 15d ago
      Not every, but I hope it is hard to deny that concentration of radicalized members of Hamas is very high in that area, they historically use civilians as human shield, thus casualties.
    - 737min 15d ago
      Wikipedia not evidence but result of coordinated pro-Hamas campaign, 8 editors banned by them https://americandreaming.substack.com/p/wikipedias-islamist-vandals https://americandreaming.substack.com/p/wikipedias-islamist-...

throwitaway222 15d ago

Because they'll be the first to use it to kill millions since the 1940s

mitxela 15d ago
Plenty of nations have killed millions since the 1940s.

boplicity 15d ago

> All other nuclear nations behave Russia, China, the U.S., North Korea, Israel. These are all countries that absolutely do not behave. Each commits atrocities on a regular basis. Them having nukes makes accountability much more difficult. Just to be clear: the current situation is a huge mess caused by one deranged leader.

ericmay 15d ago
> Just to be clear: the current situation is a huge mess caused by one deranged leader. Sorry that's just dead wrong. This doesn't happen in a vacuum. I mean you could simply add Netanyahu and make your statement incorrect here. Nevermind all the other actors, Iran's deranged death cult, and more.
- pasquinelli 15d ago
  no, it is just trump. netanyahu's been pushing for this for decades, but prior presidents just didn't let themselves be pushed. as for iran, they've been the picture of restraint since trump's first term.
  - rayiner 15d ago
    > as for iran, they've been the picture of restraint since trump's first term. They tried to assassinate Trump, before he did any of this!
    - pasquinelli 15d ago
      my reflex was to think that sounds like a lie israel would tell to get trump to go to war with iran, but i realize my reflexes aren't always right, so i looked it up and it turns out, yes, it's obviously an israeli lie and the only reason you'd believe it is because you really want to.
      - rayiner 15d ago
        There was DOJ prosecution under the Biden administration: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cx28x187rmko https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cx28x187rmko. I'm going to believe Biden's DOJ over Iran...

qlte 15d ago

> And I don't buy the "Iran is different" gospel. It's funny reading literature from the mega hawks in US politics during the Cold War. Descriptions of the Soviet leadership basically word for word use the same apocalyptic terms used for the ayatollahs/IRGC by current neocons about Iran. Just swap in "Islamist" for "Communist" as the current ideology that makes any kind of realpolitik impossible. "These leaders aren't rational like previous adversaries, they don't fear annihilation, in fact they want catastrophe to prove their own fatalist belief system. There can be no negotiation with this sort of enemy, their singular goal is our destruction even at the cost of their own lives." It's always different this time, and all assumptions about self-serving human nature need to be thrown out the window. Anyone who thinks force isn't the only solution is a naively deluded suicidal peacenik. All out war right now on our terms is the only rational way to avoid world destruction.

stickfigure 15d ago

> All other nuclear nations behave [...] What makes you think that Iran won't? Iran already misbehaves, exporting violence to the entire region. How do you think they are going to act when they have nuclear weapons?

goatlover 15d ago
The same as Israel.

rayiner 15d ago

> All other nuclear nations behave (even Pakistan and India, which are at each other throat all the time). What makes you think that Iran won't? Because Iran's leadership is actually crazy.

corford 15d ago
And North Korea?
- rayiner 15d ago
  Crazy, but not universalist so they can only harm themselves.
martythemaniak 15d ago
For real, you just gotta go on Haqq Social and it's just endless deranged AI slop, these people are crazy.
deleted 15d ago
[deleted]
goatlover 15d ago
The same could be said for the current US leadership. All sorts of crazy sounding stuff comes from the White House. Imagine being Canadian.

eklavya 15d ago

I keep wondering about this western worldview where they keep equating a militant failed state with the largest democracy in the world. I can't fathom why they do it.

LorenPechtel 15d ago

And you think Iran will get a bomb and be peaceful? They're already backing multiple genocides. A bomb is immunity from retaliation--until Israel can't tolerate the situation anymore and blows them off the map.

LorenPechtel 15d ago

And Russian Roulette is 100% safe. Just ask anyone who has played it, they weren't hurt. (In other words, just because we haven't blown ourselves up yet doesn't mean it's safe to have nukes in the hands of lunatics.)