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> I can prototype working projects in possibly 1/30th the time, and I can do them simultaneously. This takes all the fun out of programming for me.

softwarewright 15d ago
I have the same "1/30th ... simultaneous" experience with coding agents, and I am having fun. Directing teams of agents to solve many problems (or create many useful things) for me has its own fun challenges/puzzles-to-solve. Some of the fun is redirecting coding agents when they get stuck, by showing them code or design they could not work out on their own. Some of the fun is designing tools to rein-in AI coding agents, keep them on track, and verify their outputs. Some of the fun is exploring new areas for me: compilers, game dev, language design, emulators, embedded, etc. So I am having fun at the CTO/PM/Engineering Manager level but also at the lowest coding level. I've been coding since the early 70s. This brings back the joy I had discovering microprocessors and electronics.
- cake-rusk 15d ago
  Sure, if that is what you like. I for one did not get into this field because I wanted to hire people (artificial or natural) to write the programs for me. Programming as an activity / art is what I enjoyed the most. Managing people / agents is a total turn off.
  - skeledrew 15d ago
    Nobody's stopping you from writing code, whether as a hobby or you find/start a company where that's valued.
  - softwarewright 15d ago
    But I am creating programs to manage the coding agents for me. Of course I am using coding agents to do that. It's turtles all the way down :-)
  - softwarewright 11d ago
    serious question: do you program in machine code or assembler or use a higher level language? do you use design patterns and functional approaches? metaprogramming, code generation, templating, app frameworks? Each tool, abstraction, language feature elevates coding to get more done with less (more concisely). Programming is a social activity, since source code is meant to be read by humans (at least historically) even if it is just yourself later. I'm not trying to talk you into using AI coding agents, but explain why I find them fun, and I've written a lot of code by hand over decades, from spaghetti assembler code to structureed programming to object oriented to functional, etc. Each advance in the industry has been a new and diiferent kind of fun for me.
    - cake-rusk 10d ago
      > serious question: do you program in machine code or assembler Sometimes yes. > or use a higher level language? do you use design patterns and functional approaches? metaprogramming, code generation, templating, app frameworks? Most of the time. > Each tool, abstraction, language feature elevates coding to get more done with less (more concisely) Sure. I hope you understand AI is fundamentally different. It's nothing like the things you listed above.
      - softwarewright 10d ago
        Are you saying that AI coding agents cannot produce working code? Or are you saying that it produces something that cannot be explained or understood? If I used a macro to generate code that gets compiled and linked to code someone else provided, how is that different from asking a coding agent to generate similar code and linking to other coding agent code? Is your concern that the output is probabilistic vs. a macro or code generator producing code deterministically? I apply engineering practices to ensure the results are suitable. I do understand that AI is fundamentally different (and I've been studying ML in depth for more than a year). My comparison was in terms of tools increasing productivity, not how they do that. I was a "10x programmer" on several projects and I am 10x more productive now than I was then (at least). I can create in a few days by myself (with agents) what used to take months (with a team of people). Maybe I'm producing what some consider "AI slop" but the things I've built this year work to my satisfaction, are fun to make, and I am constantly learning new things. And I am doing this for fun but also to learn by teaching, so I build educational, visual things to share with others.

softwarewright 15d ago

I have the same "1/30th ... simultaneous" experience with coding agents, and I am having fun. Directing teams of agents to solve many problems (or create many useful things) for me has its own fun challenges/puzzles-to-solve. Some of the fun is redirecting coding agents when they get stuck, by showing them code or design they could not work out on their own. Some of the fun is designing tools to rein-in AI coding agents, keep them on track, and verify their outputs. Some of the fun is exploring new areas for me: compilers, game dev, language design, emulators, embedded, etc. So I am having fun at the CTO/PM/Engineering Manager level but also at the lowest coding level. I've been coding since the early 70s. This brings back the joy I had discovering microprocessors and electronics.

cake-rusk 15d ago
Sure, if that is what you like. I for one did not get into this field because I wanted to hire people (artificial or natural) to write the programs for me. Programming as an activity / art is what I enjoyed the most. Managing people / agents is a total turn off.
- skeledrew 15d ago
  Nobody's stopping you from writing code, whether as a hobby or you find/start a company where that's valued.
- softwarewright 15d ago
  But I am creating programs to manage the coding agents for me. Of course I am using coding agents to do that. It's turtles all the way down :-)
- softwarewright 11d ago
  serious question: do you program in machine code or assembler or use a higher level language? do you use design patterns and functional approaches? metaprogramming, code generation, templating, app frameworks? Each tool, abstraction, language feature elevates coding to get more done with less (more concisely). Programming is a social activity, since source code is meant to be read by humans (at least historically) even if it is just yourself later. I'm not trying to talk you into using AI coding agents, but explain why I find them fun, and I've written a lot of code by hand over decades, from spaghetti assembler code to structureed programming to object oriented to functional, etc. Each advance in the industry has been a new and diiferent kind of fun for me.
  - cake-rusk 10d ago
    > serious question: do you program in machine code or assembler Sometimes yes. > or use a higher level language? do you use design patterns and functional approaches? metaprogramming, code generation, templating, app frameworks? Most of the time. > Each tool, abstraction, language feature elevates coding to get more done with less (more concisely) Sure. I hope you understand AI is fundamentally different. It's nothing like the things you listed above.
    - softwarewright 10d ago
      Are you saying that AI coding agents cannot produce working code? Or are you saying that it produces something that cannot be explained or understood? If I used a macro to generate code that gets compiled and linked to code someone else provided, how is that different from asking a coding agent to generate similar code and linking to other coding agent code? Is your concern that the output is probabilistic vs. a macro or code generator producing code deterministically? I apply engineering practices to ensure the results are suitable. I do understand that AI is fundamentally different (and I've been studying ML in depth for more than a year). My comparison was in terms of tools increasing productivity, not how they do that. I was a "10x programmer" on several projects and I am 10x more productive now than I was then (at least). I can create in a few days by myself (with agents) what used to take months (with a team of people). Maybe I'm producing what some consider "AI slop" but the things I've built this year work to my satisfaction, are fun to make, and I am constantly learning new things. And I am doing this for fun but also to learn by teaching, so I build educational, visual things to share with others.