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It would be really hard for me to improvise a clarinet solo based on the melody line in that kind of notation, which is something I have to do pretty frequently

It would be really hard for me to improvise a clarinet solo based on the melody line in that kind of notation, which is something I have to do pretty frequently in my old style jazz band using fake books. I'm sympathetic to that view; I spent all evening writing electronic music by programming it into a sequencer and spent a lot of my early career (starting in about 1999) programming using a piano roll. But "easier for what purpose"? It'd be really tough to read at a gig off a piano-roll. It took a long time to become comfortable with the fact that standard notation is mostly a suggestion that doesn't contain the years of context I need to get through a big band gig on double bass... but once I realized that my ability to sight read got good enough that I stopped wishing there were some other kind of notation to read.

larodi 16d ago
Sorry, brov, but improvisation is not "following a notation", but exactly the contrary. And perhaps you should try to once in a lifetime use a DAW, I bet you may find yourself amazed by how easy it is to actually read these squares.
- analog31 16d ago
  The above post mentions big band on double bass, which is precisely my main bag. This is just to clarify. The sheet music consists of portions that are fully notated (i.e., dots on the staff) and lengthy sections with nothing but chord symbols. I'm expected to improvise those parts, and to take liberties with the notated parts as well. So it is indeed a mixture of reading and improvisation. But this is aside from the choice of notation, which is just a practical matter of finding people who can read it fluently enough to perform from it.
  - scarecrowbob 16d ago
    Yeah, that's pretty much how it works in the big bands I've played in- you need to be able to both read and improvise and know when to do either. I very much can and do read for a lot of instruments. In some situations (I played cello in string quartets for a couple of years) deviation from the written notes is limited to phrasing and dynamics and if you're playing weddings, the form gets shoved around a lot (eg don't re-start the cannon when the bride's mother is cued up to walk). In most of the situations I've played in over the last couple of years, reading more like a teacher running off of "lecture notes" and less like an actor performing Shakespere- deveation is not just expected but required. However, my memory and ear isn't so good I can predict the future or play a melody or form I have not heard- being able to read an idea and play it is important in the places I play. And that's my point: standard notation never really catches all the facts about music, even in classical situations. But it's still a lot easier for me personally to read than some weird grid or table (though I have had to play charts that were almost that bad).
- scarecrowbob 16d ago
  Well, you do you... if you're putting piano rolls in front of the folks you're performing with and asking them to use that as a basis for a tune, then that's neat. I don't believe you are, but hey I have been wrong about lots of things. I've been using DAWs since Logic was owned by E-Magic. Much my early 2000s was spent writing music on a piano roll in Fruity Loops. The reason I prefer to read standard notation is precisely because I know what the other alternatives are- in reality, it's not "piano rolls" or tracker data, but simple memorization or, like, chord charts- which works fine in a lot of places. If you don't understand what I mean, then fine, but you might find the world a more interesting place when folks tell you how they have different experiences. To use a common phrase among directors, I can indeed "read not write" (if you know you know). Playing a notated part as-written is super common in a lot of places and I do that, but you might find it interesting to know that this notation isn't the only way that standard notation is used in the world. As a human who plays a lot of instruments for money in front of people, it is far easier for me to read and understand directions written in standard notation than it is to decode whatever the fuck is going on with a piano roll or, god forbid, guitar tab.
  - larodi 8d ago
    thanks for your opinion, I read the full discussion and take back the harsher parts in my tone in previous writing, while I'm not taking back the whole statement. there must'be been somewhere in my original post this disambiguation perhaps, that reading and writing the infamous notation are (of coursE) two separate things and unless one's performing the instruments it was created for, it makes certain sense to explore other notations. it is thus understandable when a certain set of characters are the only language that one reads/writes for his whole life it is perhaps easier to climb the steep learning curve once and then just stick with it. many musicians that I have known do exactly this - stick with classic notation, and never ever touch DAWs. producing these obnoxiously simple pop songs then sounds like PHD-level math. totally get what you're saying about playing certain instruments, and the fact that some of them evolved or were created alongside said notation back in the day (hundreds, yet not thousands of years ago). when I play - I play mostly by memory - melodies, drums, and not the strings. this cannot be the case though if one works on a new score to play, indeed. your point about chord charts and "read not write" will be remembered. merci. p.s. yes, everyone is missing greatly on learning new stuff by being stubborn, perhaps myself including.

larodi 16d ago

Sorry, brov, but improvisation is not "following a notation", but exactly the contrary. And perhaps you should try to once in a lifetime use a DAW, I bet you may find yourself amazed by how easy it is to actually read these squares.

analog31 16d ago
The above post mentions big band on double bass, which is precisely my main bag. This is just to clarify. The sheet music consists of portions that are fully notated (i.e., dots on the staff) and lengthy sections with nothing but chord symbols. I'm expected to improvise those parts, and to take liberties with the notated parts as well. So it is indeed a mixture of reading and improvisation. But this is aside from the choice of notation, which is just a practical matter of finding people who can read it fluently enough to perform from it.
- scarecrowbob 16d ago
  Yeah, that's pretty much how it works in the big bands I've played in- you need to be able to both read and improvise and know when to do either. I very much can and do read for a lot of instruments. In some situations (I played cello in string quartets for a couple of years) deviation from the written notes is limited to phrasing and dynamics and if you're playing weddings, the form gets shoved around a lot (eg don't re-start the cannon when the bride's mother is cued up to walk). In most of the situations I've played in over the last couple of years, reading more like a teacher running off of "lecture notes" and less like an actor performing Shakespere- deveation is not just expected but required. However, my memory and ear isn't so good I can predict the future or play a melody or form I have not heard- being able to read an idea and play it is important in the places I play. And that's my point: standard notation never really catches all the facts about music, even in classical situations. But it's still a lot easier for me personally to read than some weird grid or table (though I have had to play charts that were almost that bad).
scarecrowbob 16d ago
Well, you do you... if you're putting piano rolls in front of the folks you're performing with and asking them to use that as a basis for a tune, then that's neat. I don't believe you are, but hey I have been wrong about lots of things. I've been using DAWs since Logic was owned by E-Magic. Much my early 2000s was spent writing music on a piano roll in Fruity Loops. The reason I prefer to read standard notation is precisely because I know what the other alternatives are- in reality, it's not "piano rolls" or tracker data, but simple memorization or, like, chord charts- which works fine in a lot of places. If you don't understand what I mean, then fine, but you might find the world a more interesting place when folks tell you how they have different experiences. To use a common phrase among directors, I can indeed "read not write" (if you know you know). Playing a notated part as-written is super common in a lot of places and I do that, but you might find it interesting to know that this notation isn't the only way that standard notation is used in the world. As a human who plays a lot of instruments for money in front of people, it is far easier for me to read and understand directions written in standard notation than it is to decode whatever the fuck is going on with a piano roll or, god forbid, guitar tab.
- larodi 8d ago
  thanks for your opinion, I read the full discussion and take back the harsher parts in my tone in previous writing, while I'm not taking back the whole statement. there must'be been somewhere in my original post this disambiguation perhaps, that reading and writing the infamous notation are (of coursE) two separate things and unless one's performing the instruments it was created for, it makes certain sense to explore other notations. it is thus understandable when a certain set of characters are the only language that one reads/writes for his whole life it is perhaps easier to climb the steep learning curve once and then just stick with it. many musicians that I have known do exactly this - stick with classic notation, and never ever touch DAWs. producing these obnoxiously simple pop songs then sounds like PHD-level math. totally get what you're saying about playing certain instruments, and the fact that some of them evolved or were created alongside said notation back in the day (hundreds, yet not thousands of years ago). when I play - I play mostly by memory - melodies, drums, and not the strings. this cannot be the case though if one works on a new score to play, indeed. your point about chord charts and "read not write" will be remembered. merci. p.s. yes, everyone is missing greatly on learning new stuff by being stubborn, perhaps myself including.