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Both things like Oxycontin OP and drug clinics seem like good ideas to me. I don't know why you seem to be saying it's one or the other and we're making the wro

Both things like Oxycontin OP and drug clinics seem like good ideas to me. I don't know why you seem to be saying it's one or the other and we're making the wrong choice. I don't think that's a valid representation of the decision space.

drivebyacct2 14y ago
Because poisoning people as a way to get them to stop using drugs is abhorrent?
- cynicalkane 14y ago
  Withdrawing an abusable drug is not the same as deliberately poisoning people. I know they are in the narrative you wove for yourself, but I just wrote a post about how I don't buy that narrative.
  - jlgreco 14y ago
    The acetaminophen dosage that you get when you abuse many narcotic pain killers is poisoning. We're not talking about a bittering agent, or something that makes you throw it back up. We're talking: if you abuse it, it will kill you.
    - cynicalkane 14y ago
      Narcotic pain killers containing acetaminophen have a lower risk of addiction than the equivalent opiate. That is the whole reason why they're so readily available. A dentist prescribing Vicodin is unlikely to create another addict. As a person who has had two root canals, one for a severely infected tooth, I am glad that this is the situation. Oxycontin, as a time-release opiate, is another drug intended to maximize the painkilling:abuse potential ratio. You are implying that things like Oxycontin OP are an attempt to poison drug users. I reject this weird-ass conspiracy theory, and submit that perhaps things like Oxycontin OP are designed to do exactly what they say--lower risk of abuse. Nobody wakes up one day and says "I am going to become an addict today", it happens in cumulative moments of weakness. Edit: now people are saying that the point of Vicodin is to kill people who overdose on it. Nonsense. It's an effective painkiller with reduced addiction risk; reason enough for its existence if you care at all about consumer freedom. But whether or not Vicodin should exist is not even what this subthread is about. I give up.
      - drivebyacct2 14y ago
        >submit that perhaps things like Oxycontin OP are designed to do exactly what they say--lower risk of abuse. They do so by attempting to deter abuse via threat of poison. People die from acetaminophen poisoning from this tactic. >Nobody wakes up one day and says "I am going to become an addict today", it happens in cumulative moments of weakness. You don't know what you're talking about. The Vicodin comment was bad enough. It's widely known to be abused and it often leads to abuse of other painkillers. edit: I'm worried I've misunderstood. I got the impression from the context that Oxycontin OP had acetaminophen in it. If it doesn't, why are we even talking about it?
      - jlgreco 14y ago
        Despite the assertions of low abuse potential, the reality is that people do become addicted to narcotic pain killers. Vicodin abuse is massively widespread, you are entirely ignorant in this subject if you think otherwise. When the original, "higher abuse potential" (read: safer) Oxycontin formulation was replaced by Oxycontin OP, addicts were driven to abusing high-acetaminophen narcotics anyway (attempting cold water extraction if they knew enough), or to more dangerous sources of a fix: black market original formulation Oxycontin or, often, street heroin. No addict wakes up one day and says "Oh, my painkillers have acetaminophen? Guess it's a good day to quit". Why? Because they are addicts. Creating slow-releasing narcotic painkillers to reduce accidental addiction is fine. Removing all safe narcotic painkillers from the market damages addicts and is unethical. Oxycontin OP was not invented in a vacuum, it replaced the traditional Oxycontin in a misguided attempt to stop deliberate abuse (the differences are not merely limited to slower release). Creating narcotic painkillers that are purposely deadly when abused is never fine.
        rdl 14y ago
        I honestly don't know how an MD would permit himself to be involved in the Vicodin/Percocet crime. There had to be hundreds of doctors involved in development and approval. It kills people, completely unnecessarily, in the name of the drug war. (if I ever get a painkiller from my dentist, I ask specifically for vicoprofen, anyway)
jlgreco 14y ago
Opiate abuse is damaging enough. Increasing the danger does nothing to slow abuse among the addicted and is incredibly unethical. It's like building a car that disables it's own airbags when you start speeding. Worse actually. Speeding is not a physically addicting activity, merely psychologically addicting.
- jacquesm 14y ago
  Adrenaline addiction is physical, not just psychological. There are some studies which shine light on the underlying cause: http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/02/01/us-dopamine-idUSTRE6105RE20100201 http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/02/01/us-dopamine-idUSTR...

drivebyacct2 14y ago

Because poisoning people as a way to get them to stop using drugs is abhorrent?

cynicalkane 14y ago
Withdrawing an abusable drug is not the same as deliberately poisoning people. I know they are in the narrative you wove for yourself, but I just wrote a post about how I don't buy that narrative.
- jlgreco 14y ago
  The acetaminophen dosage that you get when you abuse many narcotic pain killers is poisoning. We're not talking about a bittering agent, or something that makes you throw it back up. We're talking: if you abuse it, it will kill you.
  - cynicalkane 14y ago
    Narcotic pain killers containing acetaminophen have a lower risk of addiction than the equivalent opiate. That is the whole reason why they're so readily available. A dentist prescribing Vicodin is unlikely to create another addict. As a person who has had two root canals, one for a severely infected tooth, I am glad that this is the situation. Oxycontin, as a time-release opiate, is another drug intended to maximize the painkilling:abuse potential ratio. You are implying that things like Oxycontin OP are an attempt to poison drug users. I reject this weird-ass conspiracy theory, and submit that perhaps things like Oxycontin OP are designed to do exactly what they say--lower risk of abuse. Nobody wakes up one day and says "I am going to become an addict today", it happens in cumulative moments of weakness. Edit: now people are saying that the point of Vicodin is to kill people who overdose on it. Nonsense. It's an effective painkiller with reduced addiction risk; reason enough for its existence if you care at all about consumer freedom. But whether or not Vicodin should exist is not even what this subthread is about. I give up.
    - drivebyacct2 14y ago
      >submit that perhaps things like Oxycontin OP are designed to do exactly what they say--lower risk of abuse. They do so by attempting to deter abuse via threat of poison. People die from acetaminophen poisoning from this tactic. >Nobody wakes up one day and says "I am going to become an addict today", it happens in cumulative moments of weakness. You don't know what you're talking about. The Vicodin comment was bad enough. It's widely known to be abused and it often leads to abuse of other painkillers. edit: I'm worried I've misunderstood. I got the impression from the context that Oxycontin OP had acetaminophen in it. If it doesn't, why are we even talking about it?
    - jlgreco 14y ago
      Despite the assertions of low abuse potential, the reality is that people do become addicted to narcotic pain killers. Vicodin abuse is massively widespread, you are entirely ignorant in this subject if you think otherwise. When the original, "higher abuse potential" (read: safer) Oxycontin formulation was replaced by Oxycontin OP, addicts were driven to abusing high-acetaminophen narcotics anyway (attempting cold water extraction if they knew enough), or to more dangerous sources of a fix: black market original formulation Oxycontin or, often, street heroin. No addict wakes up one day and says "Oh, my painkillers have acetaminophen? Guess it's a good day to quit". Why? Because they are addicts. Creating slow-releasing narcotic painkillers to reduce accidental addiction is fine. Removing all safe narcotic painkillers from the market damages addicts and is unethical. Oxycontin OP was not invented in a vacuum, it replaced the traditional Oxycontin in a misguided attempt to stop deliberate abuse (the differences are not merely limited to slower release). Creating narcotic painkillers that are purposely deadly when abused is never fine.
      - rdl 14y ago
        I honestly don't know how an MD would permit himself to be involved in the Vicodin/Percocet crime. There had to be hundreds of doctors involved in development and approval. It kills people, completely unnecessarily, in the name of the drug war. (if I ever get a painkiller from my dentist, I ask specifically for vicoprofen, anyway)

jlgreco 14y ago

Opiate abuse is damaging enough. Increasing the danger does nothing to slow abuse among the addicted and is incredibly unethical. It's like building a car that disables it's own airbags when you start speeding. Worse actually. Speeding is not a physically addicting activity, merely psychologically addicting.

jacquesm 14y ago
Adrenaline addiction is physical, not just psychological. There are some studies which shine light on the underlying cause: http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/02/01/us-dopamine-idUSTRE6105RE20100201 http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/02/01/us-dopamine-idUSTR...