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How the U.S. government poisoned alcohol during Prohibition
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- benthumb 14y agoOK, before the conspiracy theorists on this board start coming out of the woodwork, let's try to keep this in perspective: they were drunks -- they deserved it!
- gpcz 14y agoWith that callous disregard for human life, I hope you are never in a position of power.
- benthumb 14y agoTwo trips to Auschwitz this year, my friend. I was responding -- in a perverse and ironic fashion -- to this meme that I hear oft repeated that the US gov't wouldn't conspire to kill its own people ...
- gnosis 14y agoWere you making jokes at Auschwitz too?
- benthumb 14y agoNot meant to be a joke -- far from it. What it WAS was an ill-considered expression of outrage. And, btw, FU.
- drivebyacct2 14y ago>FU You're not even new here. Why is it even relevant that you visited Auschwitz?
- pyre 14y agoSomething along the lines of: > I'm not racist! I have black friends!
- neumann_alfred 14y agohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_syphilis_experiment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_syphilis_experiment 40 years! I will never wrap my brain around this one. And no, I don't mean to say "that's just as bad as the Nazis". But still. 40 years. So much for rather hideous crap being impossible to keep secret, right? I can't help but think, if something like this can stay secret for 40 years, real horrid geopolitical stuff involving sending people to war based on deception, and pluging a country into debt to fleece them, would stay secret for much longer EZ PZ. Which doesn't prove anything of course, other than that "something like this is impossible to keep secret" seems to be wishful thinking.
- noibl 14y agoWhile the Tuskegee experiment followed the natural progression of syphilis in those already infected, in Guatemala [US Public Health Service] doctors deliberately infected healthy people (having just defeated the Nazis). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guatemala_syphilis_experiment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guatemala_syphilis_experiment
- eitland 14y agospeaking of nazis: I guess they would have been delighted to see the way for example people with Down's syndrome get removed before they are even born. And the way it is done voluntarily. Same disrespect, new wrapping. Instead of "to the greater good of the people" it is now "their parents right to decide." (Startup lesson: Don't underestimate marketing. It might be the difference between "hero" and "villain".)
- dwiel 14y agoRight, they would never even think of iy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
- krakensden 14y agoSarcasm doesn't translate via text.
- waqf 14y agoSure it doesn't.
- jlgreco 14y agoI don't find this too hard to believe. Even today we see a push to either reformulate narcotic painkiller medications to make abuse difficult/impossible, or bundle them with acetaminophen/paracetamol. The problem is that when drugs like Oxycontin are reformulated to make abuse difficult ("Oxycontin OP") addicts are driven to attempt abuse of other narcotic painkillers which get them the desired affects... but with a potentially deadly dose of acetaminophen. So instead of attempting to help these people while providing them with a safer alternative (methadone clinics exist, but for the most part they really are not targeted towards the middle-class/middle-aged prescription painkiller addict crowd), we are pushing to eliminate drugs that are safe to abuse. This move seems based in the plainly idiotic attitude of "well if an addict can't do something safely, he'll just give it up".
- ghayes 14y agoThis reminds me of the result of the abstinence argument. Namely, even if you believe all premarital sex is immoral, it's still important to realize that safe immoral sex is better for the man and woman than unsafe immoral sex. When the government forces what society believes to be "right," as opposed to what is effective (in regards to health, purse or morality), it can have harsh consequences. [Edit: grammar]
- adrianm 14y agoI think you mean immoral. An amoral action is neither moral ("good") nor immoral ("bad").
- Cushman 14y agoThe thesis of the War on Drugs is pretty much that there are abstract, amorphous dangers to recreational drug use, and the proper role of government is to provide immediate, concrete dangers so that people will stop. It does have a certain twisted logic to it, if you ignore every piece of empirical evidence generated over the last hundred years. Mixing Tylenol with oxy is twisted in a different way, because it replaces an abstract danger (if you take some amount in some period of time, you might become dangerously dependent) with a somewhat less abstract danger (if you take some smaller amount in some shorter period of time, you might die).
- adestefan 14y agoAnd it's still done today. Denatured or methylated alcohol is a common product used around the world as a common solvent. Instead of using denatured alcohol to mix shellac I just get 190 proof grain alcohol since it's cheaper, but it's available in very few states.
- monochromatic 14y agoWhere is grain alcohol cheaper than denatured?
- sliverstorm 14y agoThat makes sense though. I think we generally agree as a country that we don't want to make alcohol freely availible to minors- so what do you do about industrial usage? Do you want to be carded to buy solvents? Should a teenager be prevented from buying solvents for painting?
- lsc 14y ago> I think we generally agree as a country that we don't want to make alcohol freely availible to minors Hey kid; don't take the car out without my permission. And just in case you get any ideas while mom and I are out this weekend, I've rigged the brakes to fail 15 minutes after you start the car. Be good! Man, I'm glad you ain't my daddy. >Do you want to be carded to buy solvents? Should a teenager be prevented from buying solvents for painting? Most places (in the sacramento area?.. I haven't bought spraypaint in a while.) card you when buying spraypaint. I have certainly been carded for buying solvents that one could potentially huff. It's certainly not as consistent or as well-enforced as alcohol, but it's done.
- forgottenpaswrd 14y ago"I think we generally agree as a country that we don't want to make alcohol freely available to minors" And this is one of your main problems as a country. When I was a kid in Spain I had access to as much alcohol as I wanted, so with all my family and friends and school partners (hundreds of people). We had very few problems with that, being a "borracho" was bad seen by society but moderate consumption was normal. There is nothing wrong for a kid drinking some wine or Sider or Cava for lunch, in fact a lot of families continue giving their children access to low grade alcoholic drinks as it was done since the Romans(before water filtering 100 years ago drinking water alone meant death by water microorganisms). Later they forbid it, and "botellon" appeared. It was cool to do something against the law, "borracho" was replace with "pedo" without the negative connotations, and our young people started drinking like there was not tomorrow.
- noibl 14y agoOther [denaturing formulas] used bitter-tasting compounds that were less lethal, designed to make the alcohol taste so awful that it became undrinkable. This approach was also applied to non-industrial alcohol products, leading to another round of mass poisoning: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamaica_ginger http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamaica_ginger
- monochromatic 14y agoExcept this poisoning was due to people trying to get around the government's required bitterant content.
- betterunix 14y agoWhich bears an eerie resemblance to the problems we have with methamphetamine today. Much of the damage caused by methamphetamine abuse is the result of adulterants in the drug, which is produced under poorly controlled conditions. Pharmaceutical methamphetamine -- the kind that doctors sometimes prescribe to children -- causes far less damage to its users and even to those who abuse it (not to deny that abusing it is dangerous even without the adulterants).
- Deprogrammer9 14y agoThey do a lot worse things to people today with advanced compounds. Substances which will promote illogical thinking and impulsiveness to the point where the recipient would be discredited in public. Substances which increase the efficiency of mentation and perception. Materials which will cause the victim to age faster/slower in maturity. (WTF) Materials will cause temporary/permanent brain damage and loss of memory. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra
- dandelany 14y ago[Citation needed]. s/today/1973.
- JoshuaDavid 14y agoDid they find materials that cause the "victim" to age slower in maturity or increase the efficiency of perception and processing? Because if so, those seem unambiguously good (though the others seem pretty unambiguously bad).
- Deprogrammer9 14y agoIs stunted development a good thing?
- nazgulnarsil 14y ago500 people die annually due to acetaminophen poisoning, mostly from attempting to take too many painkillers which include both opiates and acetaminophen. The acetaminophen is included for the express purpose of "dissuading abuse."
- Firehed 14y agoWell, you can't deny that it does stop the abuse. Really poor implementation though.
- Tarential 14y agoI have to weigh in here. It does not stop the abuse. Separating opiates from acetaminophen is extremely simple (look up cold water extraction). All it does is kill people who aren't aware of the danger or the alternatives. There are many good reasons not to abuse oxycodone. The government doesn't need to add to the damage of people who are only hurting themselves.
- jlgreco 14y agoAbuse of prescription painkillers is massive. Acetaminophen does not prevent abuse, it only injures.
- icelancer 14y agoThat was his point.
- bhups 14y agoAs far as I know, they still do this in India. The ethanol that we used in my 12th grade Chemistry lab (back in 2008) was denatured with ~3% methanol.
- rms 14y agoThey still do this in the United States!!!! With 10% methanol! http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=202249513&storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&cm_sp=BazVoice-_-RLP-_-202249513-_-x#.UNk-dG_oTp4 http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDi...
- dhughes 14y agoAs a Canadian I laughed at "steep taxes" when I go to the US alcohol is ridiculously cheap and sometimes given out free (e.g. casinos). Especially hard liquor and wine, I rarely drink but it's interesting to see such a huge difference: 6 pack $15, 1 liter Captain Morgan rum $40, Sauvignon Blanc wine $15
- jlgreco 14y agoProbably worth noting that prices and regulations vary wildly on a state-by-state basis. In Pennsylvania all liquor and wine can only be purchased from state stores, and beer can only be purchased from licensed beer distributors (never grocery stores or the like, with very rare 'technicality' exceptions). (Restaurants and bars also sell beer, so in practice most people who buy beer in Pennsylvania will buy a six-pack from the local bar or restaurant, often at rather steep prices). In Utah, chances are you won't be able to buy that same $15 six-pack of beer; alcohol content is limited to 3.2 ABV (very low, for those not versed) unless the establishment is also licensed to sell liquor. Then you get into the whole local government regulations/taxes situation. There are hundreds of "dry counties" in the US where you simply cannot buy alcohol at all. "Blue Laws" seem to be more common than not, even in cities. It's a complex situation. In some places in the US alcohol will flow like water (Such as Vegas, as you eluded to), but in other places alcohol laws will make Canada appear liberal in that respect.
- dhughes 14y agoFunny that you said Pennsylvania that's where I was and where I was thinking about when writing about cheap US booze. I'm so used to government run liquor outlets I never even thought about it not being a private store.
- forgottenpaswrd 14y agoThe law of the unintended consequences, very normal for politicians.
- gus_massa 14y agoPreviously submitted: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1140603 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1140603 (126 points, 2 years ago, 53 comments)
- mtgx 14y agoSo who was punished in all of this? Let me guess - no one.
- pknerd 14y agohahahah and then world abhor Talibans. _Irony_
- ams6110 14y agoWith these kinds of historical examples you sort of have to understand the people who think that mass shootings are orchestrated by the government to move public opinion on gun control.
- readme 14y agoMaybe this is why people associate bootleg alcohol with danger these days. Of course, it doesn't surprise me they did this in the 30s. We also used to have involuntary sterilization here.