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They say these features are opt-in and they reject dark patterns, but in my experience setting up LG TVs, everything was opt-in and I had to manually hunt throu

They say these features are opt-in and they reject dark patterns, but in my experience setting up LG TVs, everything was opt-in and I had to manually hunt through all the menus to turn this stuff off. Their statements don’t align with the reality I’ve experienced as a customer. My TV is not connected to the network, because the setup process left me with 0 trust that LG wouldn’t be collecting information regardless of my settings, or that I didn’t miss something. There was also the risk that they’d add a new “feature” with an update which would I’d be automatically opted in to. Until they start selling truly dumb TVs, I’m not going to trust anything and their statements fall flat.

gus_massa 15d ago
> everything was opt-in Opt-in used to mean that it was disabled until you explicitly click somewhere to enable it.
- al_borland 15d ago
  I probably should have said "everything was already enabled"... Opt-in/out was on the mind, and neither seemed like the right wording to convey that the choice was already made for me in the wrong direction.... I was opted in automatically.
  - gus_massa 15d ago
    Yesterday I saw a comment that say that some info collecting was "opt-in by default" and I imagined it was an evil conspiracy f corporations to dilute the name. I just looked for the comment, but it was just another case of error while writing the comment. Anyway, last year my phone died and I bought a new one made by Samsung. I had to opt out of collection like 4 or 5 times with confusing buttons, and there is a lot of crapware installed by default, and then the phone offered to install two additional apps. I almost sure I said no, but one of them got installed anyway.
  - OroPla 14d ago
    If the checkbox is already ticked it is called opt-out. You have to toggle the checkbox to not be activated. The other way around is opt-in. The checkbox is empty and if you want to enable it you have to take action. Opt-in: take action to have the feature. Opt-out: take action to not have the feature.
  - alt227 14d ago
    It was enabled when you accepted the terms and conditions when you first turned it on, or did a firmware update. LGs statment says this: > ACR is an optional feature that is turned off by default. To enable ACR, a user must accept LG’s Viewing Information Agreement, which describes how ACR works. Which I take to mean that when you agree to the terms, it enables the feature.
    - canucker2016 14d ago
      At 5:58 of the Gamers Nexus (GN) video about LG TV's spying, GN make a statement: Now, our lawyers have made the totally unrelated point uh that we cannot legally agree to contracts such as terms of service or conditions while incredibly innebriated. So they drank a lot of margaritas while video-recording the section concerning reading and accepting the Terms of Service for the TV. Take that LG legal dept. see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IFVTcM28KA&t=358s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IFVTcM28KA&t=358s
      - delecti 14d ago
        I don't think that would hold up in any court in the world. While sober, and in coordination with legal counsel, they made a plan to accept the terms and conditions. That's like a kid swinging their arms around on a playground while saying "I'm not touching you" levels.
        rockskon 13d ago
        They were just bringing levity to an otherwise depressing topic.
        daemin 13d ago
        I would also bet that they didn't actually have any alcohol in their drinking vessels at the time of filming.
        account42 12d ago
        New to the concept of parody? They are pointing out the absurdity of the idea that a click to accept shrinkwrap ToS lets LG infringe the rights of whoever talks in front of the TV.
  - vikramkr 14d ago
    I would argue there is a very clear unambiguously correct choice of wording for that case. The setting was opt out. It's a binary concept and which case it's in is determined by the default given no user action. If it is opt in, then it is off by default and you have to make the choice to turn it on. If it is opt out, it is on by default and you have to make the choice to turn it off. If it was enabled automatically it is opt out. There's no need to complicate the meaning of terminology with a straightforward definition. Given you don't take active action, that you accept all defaults and take the path of least resistance, is it enabled or disabled by default? That's all that matters.
- intothemild 14d ago
  Opt-in as in don't connect smart TVs to the internet.
- thfuran 14d ago
  It still does.
brigade 14d ago
For like a decade, the "opt-in" to ACR was included in the ToS agreement needed to use any smart features. Then at least some brands made the opt-in separate, but made it look like a recommendation engine or "help us improve your experience" agreement. LG adopted the "Maybe Later" dark pattern for opt-in to ACR, at least in some markets. Though I guess you never know for sure with A/B testing.
- account42 12d ago
  We really need a GDPR-like law that makes it clear that goading users into accepting ToS like this cannot constitute a contract and instead invalidates the agreement for everyone.

gus_massa 15d ago

> everything was opt-in Opt-in used to mean that it was disabled until you explicitly click somewhere to enable it.

al_borland 15d ago
I probably should have said "everything was already enabled"... Opt-in/out was on the mind, and neither seemed like the right wording to convey that the choice was already made for me in the wrong direction.... I was opted in automatically.
- gus_massa 15d ago
  Yesterday I saw a comment that say that some info collecting was "opt-in by default" and I imagined it was an evil conspiracy f corporations to dilute the name. I just looked for the comment, but it was just another case of error while writing the comment. Anyway, last year my phone died and I bought a new one made by Samsung. I had to opt out of collection like 4 or 5 times with confusing buttons, and there is a lot of crapware installed by default, and then the phone offered to install two additional apps. I almost sure I said no, but one of them got installed anyway.
- OroPla 14d ago
  If the checkbox is already ticked it is called opt-out. You have to toggle the checkbox to not be activated. The other way around is opt-in. The checkbox is empty and if you want to enable it you have to take action. Opt-in: take action to have the feature. Opt-out: take action to not have the feature.
- alt227 14d ago
  It was enabled when you accepted the terms and conditions when you first turned it on, or did a firmware update. LGs statment says this: > ACR is an optional feature that is turned off by default. To enable ACR, a user must accept LG’s Viewing Information Agreement, which describes how ACR works. Which I take to mean that when you agree to the terms, it enables the feature.
  - canucker2016 14d ago
    At 5:58 of the Gamers Nexus (GN) video about LG TV's spying, GN make a statement: Now, our lawyers have made the totally unrelated point uh that we cannot legally agree to contracts such as terms of service or conditions while incredibly innebriated. So they drank a lot of margaritas while video-recording the section concerning reading and accepting the Terms of Service for the TV. Take that LG legal dept. see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IFVTcM28KA&t=358s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IFVTcM28KA&t=358s
    - delecti 14d ago
      I don't think that would hold up in any court in the world. While sober, and in coordination with legal counsel, they made a plan to accept the terms and conditions. That's like a kid swinging their arms around on a playground while saying "I'm not touching you" levels.
      - rockskon 13d ago
        They were just bringing levity to an otherwise depressing topic.
        daemin 13d ago
        I would also bet that they didn't actually have any alcohol in their drinking vessels at the time of filming.
      - account42 12d ago
        New to the concept of parody? They are pointing out the absurdity of the idea that a click to accept shrinkwrap ToS lets LG infringe the rights of whoever talks in front of the TV.
- vikramkr 14d ago
  I would argue there is a very clear unambiguously correct choice of wording for that case. The setting was opt out. It's a binary concept and which case it's in is determined by the default given no user action. If it is opt in, then it is off by default and you have to make the choice to turn it on. If it is opt out, it is on by default and you have to make the choice to turn it off. If it was enabled automatically it is opt out. There's no need to complicate the meaning of terminology with a straightforward definition. Given you don't take active action, that you accept all defaults and take the path of least resistance, is it enabled or disabled by default? That's all that matters.
intothemild 14d ago
Opt-in as in don't connect smart TVs to the internet.
thfuran 14d ago
It still does.

brigade 14d ago

For like a decade, the "opt-in" to ACR was included in the ToS agreement needed to use any smart features. Then at least some brands made the opt-in separate, but made it look like a recommendation engine or "help us improve your experience" agreement. LG adopted the "Maybe Later" dark pattern for opt-in to ACR, at least in some markets. Though I guess you never know for sure with A/B testing.

account42 12d ago
We really need a GDPR-like law that makes it clear that goading users into accepting ToS like this cannot constitute a contract and instead invalidates the agreement for everyone.