7 ms·

Puhh... Linus is known to be quite reckless and he may be right in essence, but the language... he might calm down a little and learn one or two things about so

by buster 14y ago

Puhh... Linus is known to be quite reckless and he may be right in essence, but the language... he might calm down a little and learn one or two things about social interaction.. there are a ot of ways to say what you want without plainly insulting someone over and over again.

buster 14y ago
It seems he calmed down a little afterwards and answered without all that rage and curse words, clearly he's upset but i don't imagine him going postal anymore: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/1414130 http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/1414130
- keithpeter 14y ago
  > But since applications *do* care, and since we *do* have > multiple error values, we stick to the old ones, unless > there are some *very* good reasons not to. Perhaps the original email could have been about 10 lines long with the quote above being the main point? My point is: is it worth attempting to convey anger in a text only medium? I can give as good as I get in a good old shouting match f2f. My thing is waving my arms about. Other colleagues find that funny and start laughing. Then I realise, and we all calm down, then we find a way out of the problem. I find it slightly strange trying to do that in a text only medium.
  - buster 14y ago
    Well, i like to argue about things i am passionate about too. With friends, with colleagues, with my boss. But i try to reason with them. I don't just tell them to "shut the fuck up".
    - keithpeter 14y ago
      Yes, good point, but I think Torvalds was reminding the unfortunate developer of the need not to break user space applications. I can see why that is very important. But still...
ksec 14y ago
If you think of Linux Kernel Development as a company then i see nothing wrong with that. In the eyes of CEO, one of his SVP did something totally unacceptable by SVP standard.
- buster 14y ago
  So, you seem to be ok with your boss shouting at you and insulting you for like half an hour because you make a one-time mistake. I wouldn't be ok with that in a company i am working. I'd quit. Either the SVP in your example is completely incompetent and absolutely not fit to do his job (then demote him, fire hime, whatever) OR it's a misstep (then tell him his error, make certain it doesn't happen again, reason with him but don't just insult him, what good is supposed to come out of that?!). I certainly agree that a company/team/project needs strong leaders but being strong/focused/passionate/ambitious and being a dick to people has nothing to do with each other. At all.
  - kelnos 14y ago
    Agreed. Also: praise in public, chastise in private. If I'd done something truly stupid and irresponsible at a job, I would expect to get yelled at by my boss, but in private, not in front of the whole company. Clearly this sort of behavior seems to work for Linus, given that there's no shortage of talented kernel developers flocking to the project, but it still rubs me the wrong way.
    - buster 14y ago
      Good point.
    - snogglethorpe 14y ago
      > ... but it still rubs me the wrong way The thing is you have to take it context. People that work with Linus know how he acts, and know how to interpret what he does. Linus's tendency to (temporarily) go ballistic very often rubs those unfamiliar with it the wrong way, but you learn after a while that he really isn't some kind of mega-aggressive jerk. I don't like (and won't stand for) "abusive" control-freak type-A bosses, but Linus isn't one of those. Points one knows after being on the LKML for a while and seeing a few Linus rants: (1) He doesn't do this every day, but he does it periodically so it's Not Just You. (2) He almost always does it For A Good Reason; it's not just because he's in a bad mood, it's really because you did something stupid. If you didn't do something stupid, and he's just confused, see points (4) and (5). (3) Even if you think he's got the volume up too high, it's generally fairly proportionate to the stupidity of the original act (subtle confusion is less stupid than knowingly breaking huge numbers of apps), and proportionate to the "you should have known better" factor (i.e., his direct lieutenants are held to a much higher standard that Little-Joey-the-first-time-driver-author). (4) He usually Calms Down Quickly, and gets more technical; really it's not personal. He wants to solve the problem, not argue. However ranty his initial message, it's not just an insult; it says what you did wrong and why. (5) If you were really right, and he was wrong, he'll quickly admit his error after being presented with a good argument, and will start calling himself an idiot. He doesn't hold grudges. [Judging from the exchanges I've seen, though, he's usually not wrong; he has very, very, good instincts, and I suppose that's one reason why he so confidently goes off ranting...if he's not sure about something he'll ask a question instead.]
4ad 14y ago
> there are a ot of ways to say what you want without plainly insulting someone over and over again Sure, and in the above context they are less effective. So why would he care? > he might calm down a little and learn one or two things about social interaction Why? What purpose would that serve? The LKML is one of the last few places where politically correct bullshit does not prevail. Communication is efficient and effective. There is no evidence that changing the tone would make it more efficient and more effective, but there's evidence galore that the opposite would happen. Experience has thought me that the only people hurt in the process are technical morons, and such people have no place in a technical discussion. If someone cares more about the language or social niceties than about the correctitude of technical solutions they have no place in a technical community.
- buster 14y ago
  Writing a wall of text with insults and a low amount of real communiction is not effective. It's also nothing to do with political correct. Linus' second post in the mail thread is much more technical and much less insulting.. more effective.
  - 4ad 14y ago
    On the contrary, reading Mauro's e-mails before and after Linus' post proves that it is very effective.
    - buster 14y ago
      I would hardly say that it proves it. It doesn't prove that being a little bit more polite and to-the-point wouldn't be as effective.
    - xentronium 14y ago
      The only thing it proves is that people working at Red Hat have to deal with linus rage outbursts by the very nature of their jobs.
  - gbaygon 14y ago
thaumaturgy 14y ago
I find it easy to have empathy for Linus. He's human, just like any of us, but unlike any of us, he's responsible for the development and organization of one of the core pieces of software that drives a huge amount of stuff in the world. He's allowed to have a cranky day sometimes, especially when somebody screws up in a way that he has been very specific about in the past.
onetwothreefour 14y ago
I'm sure Linus loses a lot of sleep worrying about what buster on HN thinks regarding the tone of his language...

by buster 14y ago

buster 14y ago

It seems he calmed down a little afterwards and answered without all that rage and curse words, clearly he's upset but i don't imagine him going postal anymore: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/1414130 http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/1414130

keithpeter 14y ago
> But since applications *do* care, and since we *do* have > multiple error values, we stick to the old ones, unless > there are some *very* good reasons not to. Perhaps the original email could have been about 10 lines long with the quote above being the main point? My point is: is it worth attempting to convey anger in a text only medium? I can give as good as I get in a good old shouting match f2f. My thing is waving my arms about. Other colleagues find that funny and start laughing. Then I realise, and we all calm down, then we find a way out of the problem. I find it slightly strange trying to do that in a text only medium.
- buster 14y ago
  Well, i like to argue about things i am passionate about too. With friends, with colleagues, with my boss. But i try to reason with them. I don't just tell them to "shut the fuck up".
  - keithpeter 14y ago
    Yes, good point, but I think Torvalds was reminding the unfortunate developer of the need not to break user space applications. I can see why that is very important. But still...

ksec 14y ago

If you think of Linux Kernel Development as a company then i see nothing wrong with that. In the eyes of CEO, one of his SVP did something totally unacceptable by SVP standard.

buster 14y ago
So, you seem to be ok with your boss shouting at you and insulting you for like half an hour because you make a one-time mistake. I wouldn't be ok with that in a company i am working. I'd quit. Either the SVP in your example is completely incompetent and absolutely not fit to do his job (then demote him, fire hime, whatever) OR it's a misstep (then tell him his error, make certain it doesn't happen again, reason with him but don't just insult him, what good is supposed to come out of that?!). I certainly agree that a company/team/project needs strong leaders but being strong/focused/passionate/ambitious and being a dick to people has nothing to do with each other. At all.
- kelnos 14y ago
  Agreed. Also: praise in public, chastise in private. If I'd done something truly stupid and irresponsible at a job, I would expect to get yelled at by my boss, but in private, not in front of the whole company. Clearly this sort of behavior seems to work for Linus, given that there's no shortage of talented kernel developers flocking to the project, but it still rubs me the wrong way.
  - buster 14y ago
    Good point.
  - snogglethorpe 14y ago
    > ... but it still rubs me the wrong way The thing is you have to take it context. People that work with Linus know how he acts, and know how to interpret what he does. Linus's tendency to (temporarily) go ballistic very often rubs those unfamiliar with it the wrong way, but you learn after a while that he really isn't some kind of mega-aggressive jerk. I don't like (and won't stand for) "abusive" control-freak type-A bosses, but Linus isn't one of those. Points one knows after being on the LKML for a while and seeing a few Linus rants: (1) He doesn't do this every day, but he does it periodically so it's Not Just You. (2) He almost always does it For A Good Reason; it's not just because he's in a bad mood, it's really because you did something stupid. If you didn't do something stupid, and he's just confused, see points (4) and (5). (3) Even if you think he's got the volume up too high, it's generally fairly proportionate to the stupidity of the original act (subtle confusion is less stupid than knowingly breaking huge numbers of apps), and proportionate to the "you should have known better" factor (i.e., his direct lieutenants are held to a much higher standard that Little-Joey-the-first-time-driver-author). (4) He usually Calms Down Quickly, and gets more technical; really it's not personal. He wants to solve the problem, not argue. However ranty his initial message, it's not just an insult; it says what you did wrong and why. (5) If you were really right, and he was wrong, he'll quickly admit his error after being presented with a good argument, and will start calling himself an idiot. He doesn't hold grudges. [Judging from the exchanges I've seen, though, he's usually not wrong; he has very, very, good instincts, and I suppose that's one reason why he so confidently goes off ranting...if he's not sure about something he'll ask a question instead.]

4ad 14y ago

> there are a ot of ways to say what you want without plainly insulting someone over and over again Sure, and in the above context they are less effective. So why would he care? > he might calm down a little and learn one or two things about social interaction Why? What purpose would that serve? The LKML is one of the last few places where politically correct bullshit does not prevail. Communication is efficient and effective. There is no evidence that changing the tone would make it more efficient and more effective, but there's evidence galore that the opposite would happen. Experience has thought me that the only people hurt in the process are technical morons, and such people have no place in a technical discussion. If someone cares more about the language or social niceties than about the correctitude of technical solutions they have no place in a technical community.

buster 14y ago
Writing a wall of text with insults and a low amount of real communiction is not effective. It's also nothing to do with political correct. Linus' second post in the mail thread is much more technical and much less insulting.. more effective.
- 4ad 14y ago
  On the contrary, reading Mauro's e-mails before and after Linus' post proves that it is very effective.
  - buster 14y ago
    I would hardly say that it proves it. It doesn't prove that being a little bit more polite and to-the-point wouldn't be as effective.
  - xentronium 14y ago
    The only thing it proves is that people working at Red Hat have to deal with linus rage outbursts by the very nature of their jobs.
- gbaygon 14y ago

thaumaturgy 14y ago

I find it easy to have empathy for Linus. He's human, just like any of us, but unlike any of us, he's responsible for the development and organization of one of the core pieces of software that drives a huge amount of stuff in the world. He's allowed to have a cranky day sometimes, especially when somebody screws up in a way that he has been very specific about in the past.

onetwothreefour 14y ago

I'm sure Linus loses a lot of sleep worrying about what buster on HN thinks regarding the tone of his language...