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A bit concerning how some people in this thread will bend over backwards to defend mass surveillance. Not surprising given who owns the board, but still.

timedude 17d ago
Probably people who don't know history and trust the robberment.
TFNA 17d ago
A lot of techies have lived in China and seen how that country has stronger social harmony than the West and is gradually outpacing it, so mass surveillance clearly isn't an obstacle to the general prosperity. The problem with mass surveillance rollouts in the West is that they are incomplete: the cameras might go up, but not all infractions caught on camera are actually punished. Meanwhile, in China vandals and other disruptive people do get traced back to where they live and apprehended. I think that if such a vigorous policy were applied in other countries, even on a contrarian forum like this one you wouldn't see much opposition to the cameras.
- iamnothere 17d ago
  Yes, the problems are trust and consistency of enforcement. We have neither in the US and I’m not sure how we would ever get there. Many East Asian countries try to write their laws so that niche cases are covered, and enforcement is tighter. In the West we leave endless loopholes in overbroad laws so that (a) everyone is probably breaking some law frequently and (b) the only people who frequently face consequences are politically disfavored groups, “troublemakers”, or those who harm elites. It’s all very Soviet.
- deleted 17d ago
  [deleted]
- djeastm 17d ago
  > even on a contrarian forum like this one you wouldn't see much opposition to the cameras. You think the commenters on HN would sacrifice liberty in return for safety? I get the opposite impression.
  - TFNA 17d ago
    I get that impression, because opposition to surveillance cameras here is very often accompanied by a statement along the lines of "and society doesn't even see any benefit from it".
- ryandvm 17d ago
  What the actual fuck is this opinion? We wouldn't be so up in arms if the grip were tighter?
- akomtu 17d ago
  China is still under a communist regime, and we know how it makes society harmonious: by chopping everyone's fingers to equal length.
- bwv848 17d ago
  > has stronger social harmony Man unless you have different definition of so called social harmony, you can't be more wrong. Literally everyone is talking about 社会戾气 on Chinese social media and there are a big bunch of people seeking extreme means. > Meanwhile, in China vandals and other disruptive people do get traced back to where they live and apprehended. Nope. You think Chinese police force have unlimited amount manpower? We say the first lesson young people learn upon entering society is calling the police, 报警是社会第一课.
some_random 17d ago
Well, this has become one of the most pro-china forums around so it shouldn't be too surprising.
HEmanZ 17d ago
I still am opposed to anything capable of mass surveillance because of how easily it is abused. But living in Seattle, my car has been broken into 4 times this summer alone (with nothing taken, because we leave nothing there), thiefs dug up the side of my house to steel copper wires, on my block someone dumped gasoline all over a tree and lit it on fire just because, people went around the neighborhood smashing front flower pots, many of the local businesses have had their windows smashed by robbers twice this year. Last year someone broke into my garage using a lock pick and stole a bunch of tools and my car license plate (and the cops actually caught him because he was driving in the hov lane with my reported-stolen license plate on lol). My wife is at the point where she would probably like a flock camera on our street. I’m at the point where I wouldn’t mind a patrol car circling the area, like a damn police state. What else would you suggest people support when they are harassed by crime this much? (Edit to expand): instead of just complaining I’ll meta-point. People will vote for things like flock cameras when society is unsafe, or they feel unsafe. Right now, in the USA, lots of places are visibly unsafe and people deal with actual threats from bad actors much more often than they deal with police overreach. If you want people to vote against mass surveillance then you need to support policy that makes mass surveillance unnecessary, and you need to do it now instead of “in a future communist utopia there will be no crime” kind of policy (I use this because it’s what I see a lot of in Seattle). Weak on crime is anti-urban, weak on crime is pro police state.
- TFNA 17d ago
  > I wouldn’t mind a patrol car circling the area, like a damn police state. Very strange that Americans now view a patrolling policeman as a "police state". After all, a strolling constabulary (which would drive in the US since no one walks) was part of even the 19th-century progressive "policing by consent" model that is still well regarded today.
- MisterTea 17d ago
  > What else would you suggest proper support when they are harassed by crime this much? How would a flock camera deter a thief from breaking into your garage? It's a false sense of security. I had a guy break into two tenant spaces with a screwdriver with cameras pointed all over the place. He just wore a surgical mask and hood while keeping his head down. Nothing could ID him. I had all the locks upgraded and one tenant installed an alarm system. That's all we can do. A better question to ask is why is there so much blatant and rampant crime? Have you attended any community meetings with local representatives and voiced concerns? Have you spoke to your neighbors about these incidents (do you know your neighbors?) Maybe you live in an area who's government takes some silly light handed approach to policing, justice and reform. You either deal with it or move.
ryandvm 17d ago
Yeah, there is a suspicious amount of down-voting of anti-surveillance comments in here. I'd say there's about a 99% chance Flock is paying astroturfers.

timedude 17d ago

Probably people who don't know history and trust the robberment.

TFNA 17d ago

A lot of techies have lived in China and seen how that country has stronger social harmony than the West and is gradually outpacing it, so mass surveillance clearly isn't an obstacle to the general prosperity. The problem with mass surveillance rollouts in the West is that they are incomplete: the cameras might go up, but not all infractions caught on camera are actually punished. Meanwhile, in China vandals and other disruptive people do get traced back to where they live and apprehended. I think that if such a vigorous policy were applied in other countries, even on a contrarian forum like this one you wouldn't see much opposition to the cameras.

iamnothere 17d ago
Yes, the problems are trust and consistency of enforcement. We have neither in the US and I’m not sure how we would ever get there. Many East Asian countries try to write their laws so that niche cases are covered, and enforcement is tighter. In the West we leave endless loopholes in overbroad laws so that (a) everyone is probably breaking some law frequently and (b) the only people who frequently face consequences are politically disfavored groups, “troublemakers”, or those who harm elites. It’s all very Soviet.
deleted 17d ago
[deleted]
djeastm 17d ago
> even on a contrarian forum like this one you wouldn't see much opposition to the cameras. You think the commenters on HN would sacrifice liberty in return for safety? I get the opposite impression.
- TFNA 17d ago
  I get that impression, because opposition to surveillance cameras here is very often accompanied by a statement along the lines of "and society doesn't even see any benefit from it".
ryandvm 17d ago
What the actual fuck is this opinion? We wouldn't be so up in arms if the grip were tighter?
akomtu 17d ago
China is still under a communist regime, and we know how it makes society harmonious: by chopping everyone's fingers to equal length.
bwv848 17d ago
> has stronger social harmony Man unless you have different definition of so called social harmony, you can't be more wrong. Literally everyone is talking about 社会戾气 on Chinese social media and there are a big bunch of people seeking extreme means. > Meanwhile, in China vandals and other disruptive people do get traced back to where they live and apprehended. Nope. You think Chinese police force have unlimited amount manpower? We say the first lesson young people learn upon entering society is calling the police, 报警是社会第一课.

some_random 17d ago

Well, this has become one of the most pro-china forums around so it shouldn't be too surprising.

HEmanZ 17d ago

I still am opposed to anything capable of mass surveillance because of how easily it is abused. But living in Seattle, my car has been broken into 4 times this summer alone (with nothing taken, because we leave nothing there), thiefs dug up the side of my house to steel copper wires, on my block someone dumped gasoline all over a tree and lit it on fire just because, people went around the neighborhood smashing front flower pots, many of the local businesses have had their windows smashed by robbers twice this year. Last year someone broke into my garage using a lock pick and stole a bunch of tools and my car license plate (and the cops actually caught him because he was driving in the hov lane with my reported-stolen license plate on lol). My wife is at the point where she would probably like a flock camera on our street. I’m at the point where I wouldn’t mind a patrol car circling the area, like a damn police state. What else would you suggest people support when they are harassed by crime this much? (Edit to expand): instead of just complaining I’ll meta-point. People will vote for things like flock cameras when society is unsafe, or they feel unsafe. Right now, in the USA, lots of places are visibly unsafe and people deal with actual threats from bad actors much more often than they deal with police overreach. If you want people to vote against mass surveillance then you need to support policy that makes mass surveillance unnecessary, and you need to do it now instead of “in a future communist utopia there will be no crime” kind of policy (I use this because it’s what I see a lot of in Seattle). Weak on crime is anti-urban, weak on crime is pro police state.

TFNA 17d ago
> I wouldn’t mind a patrol car circling the area, like a damn police state. Very strange that Americans now view a patrolling policeman as a "police state". After all, a strolling constabulary (which would drive in the US since no one walks) was part of even the 19th-century progressive "policing by consent" model that is still well regarded today.
MisterTea 17d ago
> What else would you suggest proper support when they are harassed by crime this much? How would a flock camera deter a thief from breaking into your garage? It's a false sense of security. I had a guy break into two tenant spaces with a screwdriver with cameras pointed all over the place. He just wore a surgical mask and hood while keeping his head down. Nothing could ID him. I had all the locks upgraded and one tenant installed an alarm system. That's all we can do. A better question to ask is why is there so much blatant and rampant crime? Have you attended any community meetings with local representatives and voiced concerns? Have you spoke to your neighbors about these incidents (do you know your neighbors?) Maybe you live in an area who's government takes some silly light handed approach to policing, justice and reform. You either deal with it or move.

ryandvm 17d ago

Yeah, there is a suspicious amount of down-voting of anti-surveillance comments in here. I'd say there's about a 99% chance Flock is paying astroturfers.