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> Markets, left to their own accord, naturally tend to monopolies and cooperation No, they don't. To become a monopoly, they need the collusion of government t

> Markets, left to their own accord, naturally tend to monopolies and cooperation No, they don't. To become a monopoly, they need the collusion of government to outlaw competition. The poster boy of monopolies, Standard Oil, never had a monopoly. During its rise, it dropped the consumer price of kerosene 70%. Its market share dropped steadily during the years of the anti-trust trial. > It’s trivial for them to move in lock-step and everyone wins… except the consumer. Ever wonder what happened to IBM?

WalterBright 1mo ago
You might want to read "Titan" by Chernow before telling me I am wrong.
stopping 1mo ago
Are you saying that it's impossible for a company to become a monopoly purely under its own power?
- WalterBright 1mo ago
  You can always present a case history of one.
  - stopping 1mo ago
    You said: > To become a monopoly, they need the collusion of government to outlaw competition.
    - WalterBright 1mo ago
      Yes, I did. And you can prove that wrong with a case history.
      - tombert 1mo ago
        All you did was say that Standard Oil doesn't count as a monopoly because you claim that you need a government intervention to be a monopoly, which is not a definition I have heard and certainly does not fall under colloquial definitions. Your big rebuttle to it, as far as I can tell, appears to be "Nuh uh, now prove me wrong!!!". There are plenty of companies that have gotten to monopolistic or near-monopolistic categories without a government declaring it; Microsoft in the 90's, for example, was famously anti-competitive and actually was briefly declared a monopoly (though that was overturned in higher courts). As far as I'm aware, it wasn't the US government that artificially made Microsoft anticompetitive.
        WalterBright 1mo ago
        Plenty? Let's start with Microsoft. It did not have a monopoly. Apple and Linux computers were available for sale. Any other examples?
        tombert 1mo ago
        You can have a monopoly without having 100% of the market. Even one of the most famous monopolies, AT&T throughout the 20th century, never had 100% of the market. You know this, so now you're just actively lying. Microsoft was briefly deemed a monopoly by engaging in anti-competitive practices and abusing its market leadership to squash competition, like artificially blocking the use of DR-DOS to install Windows [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AARD_code https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AARD_code
      - krupan 1mo ago
        Can't reply to tombert, we're too deeply nested for hacker news, but the Microsoft example is great. The government didn't have anything to do with them being a monopoly? Have you heard of copyright laws? Did you know that Microsoft's whole business depends on the application of copyright laws to software? Did you know copyright protection used to only last for a few years? And then copyright holders lobbied government for longer and longer copyright protection?
        tombert 1mo ago
        Even if I concede all of this, and I really don’t, that doesn’t imply that it was a concerted effort to make Microsoft in particular a monopoly, at least not in the same way that they, for example, made AT&T a monopoly. Are you suggesting that the existence of laws means that monopolies are inherently government ordained? Great, then that means that the standard oil example still holds. P.S. you can actually keep replying, there’s just an artificial timer as they get nested. You can actually get around that if you click on the date/time (e.g. “2 hours ago”) and reply directly.
        krupan 1mo ago
        Aha! Neat trick to defeat hacker news's attempt to keep us from having long unproductive conversations. Let's keep it going. Does it matter if the government purposely ordained the monopoly or stupidly made it possible by extending copyright protections indefinitely? The government is the problem either way and they shouldn't have that much power!
        pocksuppet 1mo ago
        It's still government protection which caused Microsoft to be a monopoly. You provide a great example of libertarian goalpost-moving: > Microsoft wasn't protected by the government. > Yes they were, by copyright law. > But the government didn't set out to make Microsoft a monopoly.
        WalterBright 1mo ago
        Copyright is a government granted monopoly. Over time, I've come to conclude that copyright should not be a monopoly, or at least the copyright protection shouldn't last more than a handful of years.
      - stopping 1mo ago
        You really need to answer questions directly as asked, and not whatever question it is you think the other person is asking. Doing this only creates confusion. There are many occasions where I see this kind of miscommunication happening between users on this site without either person realizing it. In this case I asked a yes or no question because I simply wanted to clarify and understand the nuance of your position. You shouldn't always assume that every person responding to your comments is immediately trying to argue against you (although I'll admit this a fairly accurate heuristic for internet discussions in general). Instead of answering with "Yes, (I believe) it is impossible" or "No, it is possible", you answered with the following: "You can always present a case history of one". Because I asked you a yes/no question, I am going to interpret your response as a framing of a yes/no answer. I interpreted your comment as: "(No), you (one) can always present a case history of one". Hence my confusion: it sounded like you were holding both beliefs simultaneously: "Yes, natural monopolies are impossible, but there are counterexamples". In the future please just answer the questions as they are asked.
        WalterBright 1mo ago
        If some believes free market monopolies exist, they ought to know of some examples. Hence why I ask for a case, it's the easiest way to point out that they don't exist.
        nrr 1mo ago
        I mean, they don't exist by construction per your definitions. A free market is a market that lacks state intervention beyond what's required to enforce property rights, and a monopoly is a state-imposed single seller in a market. A free market in this construction must necessarily lack monopolies. There is no counterfactual observation that could falsify the proposition because the definition of free market doesn't admit a counterexample. Congratulations. That's an epistemic trap.
        hndc 1mo ago
        A monopoly is not a "state-imposed single seller". Where'd you get that definition from? There are many examples of natural monopolies, which is a concept that has been recognized in economic theory for at least two centuries. Walter is either being deliberately obtuse or is ignorant of history. AT&T, Western Union, most railroads, many local utilities—all examples of monopolies that formed "naturally" i.e. without state intervention. Insofar as there was state intervention in the formation of these monopolies, it was because the state intervened on the company's behalf to suspend antitrust law—such as in the case of AT&T, where the government decided it would be most efficient to permit AT&T to continue operating as a monopoly (until it didn't, and broke AT&T up).
- krupan 1mo ago
  Nothing is impossible, but it's really difficult. If some greedy entrepreneur is raking in the cash with some product or service then of course another greedy entrepreneur will see that and start competing with the first guy. The evil corporations you are worried about are not going to cooperate with another corporation. They're evil! At best they'll fake it for a while and then backstab each other. And if they aren't evil backstabbers and they are actually friendly and good at cooperating then it's a win for all of us!
nrr 1mo ago
Hmm. Why should the word monopoly only refer to the legal mechanism by which market exclusivity is enforced rather than referring to the resulting market structure or market power? If I'm not legally prohibited from competing with a firm, but that firm's position nonetheless also makes it unprofitable for me to enter or compete, what is that market structure called?
- WalterBright 1mo ago
  If it's unprofitable for you, that means the other firm is doing a better job serving customers than you.
  - nrr 1mo ago
    Does it? This is an empirical observation matched with a causal claim. How have you controlled for your confounding variables?
    - eadler 1mo ago
      Responding to you generally and not to this comment. I want to thank you for explaining economic principles even if the OP doesn't understand them. As someone who has less econ background then they'd like — your explanations are clear.

WalterBright 1mo ago

You might want to read "Titan" by Chernow before telling me I am wrong.

stopping 1mo ago

Are you saying that it's impossible for a company to become a monopoly purely under its own power?

WalterBright 1mo ago
You can always present a case history of one.
- stopping 1mo ago
  You said: > To become a monopoly, they need the collusion of government to outlaw competition.
  - WalterBright 1mo ago
    Yes, I did. And you can prove that wrong with a case history.
    - tombert 1mo ago
      All you did was say that Standard Oil doesn't count as a monopoly because you claim that you need a government intervention to be a monopoly, which is not a definition I have heard and certainly does not fall under colloquial definitions. Your big rebuttle to it, as far as I can tell, appears to be "Nuh uh, now prove me wrong!!!". There are plenty of companies that have gotten to monopolistic or near-monopolistic categories without a government declaring it; Microsoft in the 90's, for example, was famously anti-competitive and actually was briefly declared a monopoly (though that was overturned in higher courts). As far as I'm aware, it wasn't the US government that artificially made Microsoft anticompetitive.
      - WalterBright 1mo ago
        Plenty? Let's start with Microsoft. It did not have a monopoly. Apple and Linux computers were available for sale. Any other examples?
        tombert 1mo ago
        You can have a monopoly without having 100% of the market. Even one of the most famous monopolies, AT&T throughout the 20th century, never had 100% of the market. You know this, so now you're just actively lying. Microsoft was briefly deemed a monopoly by engaging in anti-competitive practices and abusing its market leadership to squash competition, like artificially blocking the use of DR-DOS to install Windows [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AARD_code https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AARD_code
    - krupan 1mo ago
      Can't reply to tombert, we're too deeply nested for hacker news, but the Microsoft example is great. The government didn't have anything to do with them being a monopoly? Have you heard of copyright laws? Did you know that Microsoft's whole business depends on the application of copyright laws to software? Did you know copyright protection used to only last for a few years? And then copyright holders lobbied government for longer and longer copyright protection?
      - tombert 1mo ago
        Even if I concede all of this, and I really don’t, that doesn’t imply that it was a concerted effort to make Microsoft in particular a monopoly, at least not in the same way that they, for example, made AT&T a monopoly. Are you suggesting that the existence of laws means that monopolies are inherently government ordained? Great, then that means that the standard oil example still holds. P.S. you can actually keep replying, there’s just an artificial timer as they get nested. You can actually get around that if you click on the date/time (e.g. “2 hours ago”) and reply directly.
        krupan 1mo ago
        Aha! Neat trick to defeat hacker news's attempt to keep us from having long unproductive conversations. Let's keep it going. Does it matter if the government purposely ordained the monopoly or stupidly made it possible by extending copyright protections indefinitely? The government is the problem either way and they shouldn't have that much power!
        pocksuppet 1mo ago
        It's still government protection which caused Microsoft to be a monopoly. You provide a great example of libertarian goalpost-moving: > Microsoft wasn't protected by the government. > Yes they were, by copyright law. > But the government didn't set out to make Microsoft a monopoly.
      - WalterBright 1mo ago
        Copyright is a government granted monopoly. Over time, I've come to conclude that copyright should not be a monopoly, or at least the copyright protection shouldn't last more than a handful of years.
    - stopping 1mo ago
      You really need to answer questions directly as asked, and not whatever question it is you think the other person is asking. Doing this only creates confusion. There are many occasions where I see this kind of miscommunication happening between users on this site without either person realizing it. In this case I asked a yes or no question because I simply wanted to clarify and understand the nuance of your position. You shouldn't always assume that every person responding to your comments is immediately trying to argue against you (although I'll admit this a fairly accurate heuristic for internet discussions in general). Instead of answering with "Yes, (I believe) it is impossible" or "No, it is possible", you answered with the following: "You can always present a case history of one". Because I asked you a yes/no question, I am going to interpret your response as a framing of a yes/no answer. I interpreted your comment as: "(No), you (one) can always present a case history of one". Hence my confusion: it sounded like you were holding both beliefs simultaneously: "Yes, natural monopolies are impossible, but there are counterexamples". In the future please just answer the questions as they are asked.
      - WalterBright 1mo ago
        If some believes free market monopolies exist, they ought to know of some examples. Hence why I ask for a case, it's the easiest way to point out that they don't exist.
        nrr 1mo ago
        I mean, they don't exist by construction per your definitions. A free market is a market that lacks state intervention beyond what's required to enforce property rights, and a monopoly is a state-imposed single seller in a market. A free market in this construction must necessarily lack monopolies. There is no counterfactual observation that could falsify the proposition because the definition of free market doesn't admit a counterexample. Congratulations. That's an epistemic trap.
        hndc 1mo ago
        A monopoly is not a "state-imposed single seller". Where'd you get that definition from? There are many examples of natural monopolies, which is a concept that has been recognized in economic theory for at least two centuries. Walter is either being deliberately obtuse or is ignorant of history. AT&T, Western Union, most railroads, many local utilities—all examples of monopolies that formed "naturally" i.e. without state intervention. Insofar as there was state intervention in the formation of these monopolies, it was because the state intervened on the company's behalf to suspend antitrust law—such as in the case of AT&T, where the government decided it would be most efficient to permit AT&T to continue operating as a monopoly (until it didn't, and broke AT&T up).
krupan 1mo ago
Nothing is impossible, but it's really difficult. If some greedy entrepreneur is raking in the cash with some product or service then of course another greedy entrepreneur will see that and start competing with the first guy. The evil corporations you are worried about are not going to cooperate with another corporation. They're evil! At best they'll fake it for a while and then backstab each other. And if they aren't evil backstabbers and they are actually friendly and good at cooperating then it's a win for all of us!

nrr 1mo ago

Hmm. Why should the word monopoly only refer to the legal mechanism by which market exclusivity is enforced rather than referring to the resulting market structure or market power? If I'm not legally prohibited from competing with a firm, but that firm's position nonetheless also makes it unprofitable for me to enter or compete, what is that market structure called?

WalterBright 1mo ago
If it's unprofitable for you, that means the other firm is doing a better job serving customers than you.
- nrr 1mo ago
  Does it? This is an empirical observation matched with a causal claim. How have you controlled for your confounding variables?
  - eadler 1mo ago
    Responding to you generally and not to this comment. I want to thank you for explaining economic principles even if the OP doesn't understand them. As someone who has less econ background then they'd like — your explanations are clear.