3 ms·

His examples don't hold up. Latinx is attempting to provide an umbrella term for latino and latina, it's not renaming one of the two. "Birthing person" is att

by kg 18d ago

His examples don't hold up. Latinx is attempting to provide an umbrella term for latino and latina, it's not renaming one of the two. "Birthing person" is attempting to provide an umbrella term for people who can give birth that may or may not necessarily be female. (You can express your own feelings about the reality that this exists, but it does exist regardless of how you feel about it). On the other hand Lake Ontario is a real lake that already had a name and now someone is trying to give it a new one.

sphinxterai 18d ago
[flagged]
jackp96 18d ago
Largely agree with you, but Democrats should drop "birthing persons" ASAP (if they haven't already) IMO. I'm all for inclusivity, but there's a certain point/form of language policing where you're asking folks to perform a lot of mental labor to adjust their language to reflect an extremely rare edge case. Like why? It's like if we insisted that people avoid the phrase "look at this" in general communication lest you offend/exclude a blind person who might be listening.
- cogman10 18d ago
  > Democrats should drop "birthing persons" I've never heard 1 democrat politician say "birthing person". This was never something "democrats" said and always something that rightwing media says that Democrats say. There's nothing to drop or defend as this is completely a distraction from real issues. Basically, rightwing media LOVES picking fringe individuals pushing a position and pretending like every democrat actually believes the same.
  - liveoneggs 16d ago
    2024 NIH guidance: https://web.archive.org/web/20240409042454/https://www.nih.gov/nih-style-guide/inclusive-gender-neutral-language https://web.archive.org/web/20240409042454/https://www.nih.g... These word changes were real things that happened by government policy.
    - cogman10 16d ago
      > Both pregnant women and pregnant people are acceptable phrases. Literally the first sentence in the guidelines that talk about birthing person. The entire paragraph says "it's fine if you want to" and isn't prescriptive. This is a fake controversy. You are literally just mad that some people recognize and want to be accommodating to trans people.
      - liveoneggs 16d ago
        I really can't stress enough just how offensive "chestfeeding" and similar turns of phrase are to massive numbers of women. It is a very big deal.
- bigstrat2003 18d ago
  Also, there's no such thing as being able to give birth and not being female. Many argue that "woman" refers to an internal sense of gender and not the physical reality of one's body, but even in that framework the term "female" refers to the nature of the body. And if you can give birth, you are female, because that is the configuration your body is in.
  - psd1 17d ago
    You've never heard of hermaphrodism? Biology is _complicated_
badc0ffee 18d ago
You definitely need to be female to give birth, regardless of whatever gender identity label you give yourself (e.g. "man" or "non binary").
- ceejayoz 18d ago
  Oh yeah? https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19155947/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19155947/
  - liveoneggs 17d ago
    I'm not sure if you're kidding or what but the mothers in that paper had 46 (the normal number) of XX chromosomes, a female with a mosaic-type defect containing some Y - successfully giving birth further proves these were female humans.
    - nostrademons 17d ago
      If you want your mind-blown, read up on feto-maternal microchimerism: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8762399/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8762399/ tl;dr: All boy moms will have some proportion of XY cells lodged in their bodies until they die. And this can result in them showing up as genetically male on a DNA test, simply because they once gave birth to a boy. When you get down to a cellular or molecular level, notions of "sex" or even "individuality" are far more blurry than our mental models admit. Sorta like recent findings that by cell count, humans are only about 43% human, and the rest is the bacteria making up our microbiome, and that our microbiome can have significant impact on our behavior. https://www.bbc.com/news/health-43674270 https://www.bbc.com/news/health-43674270
      - liveoneggs 17d ago
        yeah I knew that already - I have a son and it was mentioned as a fun fact along the way
- kg 17d ago
nostrademons 17d ago
Latinx is terrible, though, because it is something no native Spanish speaker would ever say. It's an example of the exact same sort of cultural imperialism that most of the people who like to say latinx rail against. The term that Hispanic queer and non-binary communities use is latine, which is pronounceable, follows normal Spanish grammatical rules, actually arose from the communities being discussed, and pluralizes easily to "les latines".
- plorkyeran 17d ago
  It's almost like it's not a Spanish word. It was coined by native English speakers to describe themselves. It also happens to be a terrible English word, but the fact that it doesn't work in a different language's grammar isn't why it's a bad English word.
  - liveoneggs 17d ago
    when did this retcon get invented?
what 17d ago
> "Birthing person" is attempting to provide an umbrella term for people who can give birth that may or may not necessarily be female. There is no person that can give birth and is not female.
tzs 16d ago
Latinx actually is comparable to what Trump is doing. It is outsiders trying to force a word on a community that doesn't want it. Only about 4% of the US Hispanic population uses it, 75% say it should not be used, and half have never even heard of the word. It doesn't fit Spanish grammar or pronunciation rules which makes it look even out of place.

by kg 18d ago

sphinxterai 18d ago

[flagged]

jackp96 18d ago

Largely agree with you, but Democrats should drop "birthing persons" ASAP (if they haven't already) IMO. I'm all for inclusivity, but there's a certain point/form of language policing where you're asking folks to perform a lot of mental labor to adjust their language to reflect an extremely rare edge case. Like why? It's like if we insisted that people avoid the phrase "look at this" in general communication lest you offend/exclude a blind person who might be listening.

cogman10 18d ago
> Democrats should drop "birthing persons" I've never heard 1 democrat politician say "birthing person". This was never something "democrats" said and always something that rightwing media says that Democrats say. There's nothing to drop or defend as this is completely a distraction from real issues. Basically, rightwing media LOVES picking fringe individuals pushing a position and pretending like every democrat actually believes the same.
- liveoneggs 16d ago
  2024 NIH guidance: https://web.archive.org/web/20240409042454/https://www.nih.gov/nih-style-guide/inclusive-gender-neutral-language https://web.archive.org/web/20240409042454/https://www.nih.g... These word changes were real things that happened by government policy.
  - cogman10 16d ago
    > Both pregnant women and pregnant people are acceptable phrases. Literally the first sentence in the guidelines that talk about birthing person. The entire paragraph says "it's fine if you want to" and isn't prescriptive. This is a fake controversy. You are literally just mad that some people recognize and want to be accommodating to trans people.
    - liveoneggs 16d ago
      I really can't stress enough just how offensive "chestfeeding" and similar turns of phrase are to massive numbers of women. It is a very big deal.
bigstrat2003 18d ago
Also, there's no such thing as being able to give birth and not being female. Many argue that "woman" refers to an internal sense of gender and not the physical reality of one's body, but even in that framework the term "female" refers to the nature of the body. And if you can give birth, you are female, because that is the configuration your body is in.
- psd1 17d ago
  You've never heard of hermaphrodism? Biology is _complicated_

badc0ffee 18d ago

You definitely need to be female to give birth, regardless of whatever gender identity label you give yourself (e.g. "man" or "non binary").

ceejayoz 18d ago
Oh yeah? https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19155947/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19155947/
- liveoneggs 17d ago
  I'm not sure if you're kidding or what but the mothers in that paper had 46 (the normal number) of XX chromosomes, a female with a mosaic-type defect containing some Y - successfully giving birth further proves these were female humans.
  - nostrademons 17d ago
    If you want your mind-blown, read up on feto-maternal microchimerism: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8762399/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8762399/ tl;dr: All boy moms will have some proportion of XY cells lodged in their bodies until they die. And this can result in them showing up as genetically male on a DNA test, simply because they once gave birth to a boy. When you get down to a cellular or molecular level, notions of "sex" or even "individuality" are far more blurry than our mental models admit. Sorta like recent findings that by cell count, humans are only about 43% human, and the rest is the bacteria making up our microbiome, and that our microbiome can have significant impact on our behavior. https://www.bbc.com/news/health-43674270 https://www.bbc.com/news/health-43674270
    - liveoneggs 17d ago
      yeah I knew that already - I have a son and it was mentioned as a fun fact along the way
kg 17d ago

nostrademons 17d ago

Latinx is terrible, though, because it is something no native Spanish speaker would ever say. It's an example of the exact same sort of cultural imperialism that most of the people who like to say latinx rail against. The term that Hispanic queer and non-binary communities use is latine, which is pronounceable, follows normal Spanish grammatical rules, actually arose from the communities being discussed, and pluralizes easily to "les latines".

plorkyeran 17d ago
It's almost like it's not a Spanish word. It was coined by native English speakers to describe themselves. It also happens to be a terrible English word, but the fact that it doesn't work in a different language's grammar isn't why it's a bad English word.
- liveoneggs 17d ago
  when did this retcon get invented?

what 17d ago

> "Birthing person" is attempting to provide an umbrella term for people who can give birth that may or may not necessarily be female. There is no person that can give birth and is not female.

tzs 16d ago

Latinx actually is comparable to what Trump is doing. It is outsiders trying to force a word on a community that doesn't want it. Only about 4% of the US Hispanic population uses it, 75% say it should not be used, and half have never even heard of the word. It doesn't fit Spanish grammar or pronunciation rules which makes it look even out of place.