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I wish there was some regulation that would force TVs to have a "dumb" mode. When the colors on our previous living room TV started to go out my dad ended up bu

I wish there was some regulation that would force TVs to have a "dumb" mode. When the colors on our previous living room TV started to go out my dad ended up buying a new huge Vizio during black friday for really cheap. He left it to me to set up, since I'm the tech guy of the family, as you all probably understand. I was surprised that the first thing I was prompted to do was to download an app and sign up for an account. The TV would not work unless I was signed in (or at the very least the option was so well hidden I didn't see one). Of course the sign up asks for PII like my name and phone number. Vizio was bought out by Walmart a while back, with the intent of expanding Walmart's advertising empire. It's really unfortunate that the TV market has ended up the way it has. My family still has a few CRTs going that have been working every day for decades, just turn it on and TV immediately starts playing. I miss that level of simplicity.

mikestew 27d ago
I was surprised that the first thing I was prompted to do was to download an app and sign up for an account. The TV would not work unless I was signed in I missed the part of your comment where you put it back in the box and returned it. (Yeah, I know, understandable reasons. But that's exactly what I would do if it were going in my house.)
- michaelt 27d ago
  The problem is for TV manufacturers to change their ways, a lot of TVs will need to be returned. And your average Smart TV buyer is prepared to sign into Netflix, Disney+, Hulu, Prime Video, Crunchyroll, Youtube etc - that's the whole point of buying a smart TV. The only returns will be from the minority who are happy to sign up and sign in for streaming services, but who balk at one more account. Personally, I'm about to return a smart TV (because it sucks) and replace it with a dumb screen. But realistically - I don't imagine these things get returned in sufficient numbers for vendors to change their ways.
  - forgotmypw17 27d ago
    It starts with one.
  - RajT88 27d ago
    I think we won't get meaningful change until a data broker gets hacked and a huge number of people (including elected officials), have their data on display for all to see.
    - lazide 27d ago
      Why do you think the current admin is always creating so many distractions? That has been happening for years.
    - account42 27d ago
      When have massive leaks ever caused any real change?
  - xmprt 27d ago
    > your average Smart TV buyer is prepared to sign into Netflix, Disney+, Hulu, Prime Video, Crunchyroll, Youtube etc I think this is starting to change a bit especially as companies crack down on password sharing. Once the dam breaks, there's gonna be a pretty drastic and unstoppable migration towards the "dumb" TV products + more open alternatives. I'm already seeing a lot of families start to move to DVDs and Blurays for kids who just watch the same 5 movies on repeat anyway. This migration is already happening away from Windows. Gaming was the big moat that Windows had but now with Steam Proton and better Linux alternatives, a ton of people are starting to move away and while it's not a significant majority yet, I think the tides have already turned and there's not much Microsoft can do to turn it back.
codazoda 27d ago
My research is a few months old, but at the time Vizio looked like the least bad option, largely because a lawsuit had pushed them to narrow what they collect.
CharlesW 27d ago
"Commercial displays" are "dumb mode" TVs. Alternatively, you can get an Apple TV and keep the TV off networks or in network jail.
- 2III7 27d ago
  Samsungs commercial grade signage displays have become quite smart and so have LGs.
  - lostlogin 27d ago
    > commercial grade signage displays If there is ever a campaign where people smash these, I’m in. Driving around a shopping strip while the damn things flash and change is awful. It’s distracting too, and seems likely to cause crashes.
    - deleted 27d ago
      [deleted]
- patch_collector 27d ago
  Network jail isn't a 100% for these -- in their testing, they determined that they could connect to the public Comcast networks that Comcast tries to blanket areas with. So even if you don't let it access your own networks, it will look for other ways to phone home.
  - tensor 27d ago
    No, they did not find this. They speculated that in the future the tvs "could" do that and that there is precedent with other devices. But despite this being repeated over and over as fact, it is in fact not proven to be the case.
    - whateveracct 27d ago
      The point is more that LG has proven fully untrustworthy so the fact that it is possible is troubling. And ofc, an adversary can operate that way.
autoexec 27d ago
> I was surprised that the first thing I was prompted to do was to download an app and sign up for an account. The TV would not work unless I was signed in (or at the very least the option was so well hidden I didn't see one). Of course the sign up asks for PII like my name and phone number. The only solution we have to this is to return the TV as defective and buy something else until you find something that works without an account or an app. A sane country would have regulations that make spying on you illegal but our government works for corporations instead of the public so they'll never protect us when there's money to be made off of us.
- smallmancontrov 27d ago
  > our government works for corporations instead of the public Yes, but we cheat ourselves out of change with learned helplessness. Did you see how much hatred the business community directed at Lina Khan when she started dusting off the old antitrust machinery? That happened recently. It can happen again. It was on the ballot, and it will be again.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 27d ago
    > Did you see how much hatred the business community directed at Lina Khan Lina Khan truly has the interests of consumers at heart. The hatred was not just right-wing. Many lefties hated her, too. The common thread seems to be billionaires.
    - smallmancontrov 27d ago
      Yes, I saw that too, it was quite remarkable. Still, learned helplessness would have us believe that such an appointment was impossible and yet it happened, and it happened in a Democratic party that leaned "more lib than left" to an even greater degree than it does today, or will in 2028. So when the billionaires twirl their moustaches and say "Silly kids! You can't possibly defeat me, why do you even try?" (or, more realistically, sponsor a lackey to promote that message) one should try to have at least as much gumption as a child facing down a cartoon villain who recognizes this as smack talk rather than deep philosophical truth. The progressives of 100 years ago faced down the first round of Robber Barons and won. We've done this before and we can do it again.
sdcfgy 27d ago
This is one of the many reasons I haven't owned a TV for the last 5 years. I just watch stuff on the computer, or not at all. It's actually nice not having it looming over me.
- Grombobulous 27d ago
  I love my friend’s house that has no TV and that’s exactly what they do. The room aesthetically looks so nice without the screen in it. However, the laptop solution tends to only work if you’re single or have no family. The TV is unfortunately a very useful device.
  - no_wizard 27d ago
    Projectors are still valid, and often superior, alternatives to TVs. They’re definitely more work to get right though
    - kuboble 27d ago
      Welp... I bought recently a projector. It wouldn't start in a dumb mode without first establishing internet connection and a Google account.
    - Grombobulous 27d ago
      Interesting idea I never thought of, though for my purposes my room gets way too much natural light for a projector to be viable.
      - cobbzilla 27d ago
        blackout shades go a long way, but if you’ve got huge bay windows that’s probably too much. If it’s close to good, and you need a little more brightness, there are newer screens that reflect much more light. more reflective = pricier, but there’s a decent value/sweet spot.
        27d ago
Mindwipe 27d ago
You can literally just buy a Sony and do this. And several other manufacturers that run Google TV can be switched to dumb mode.
- lostlogin 27d ago
  Sony tv with an AppleTV and a pihole.
sidewndr46 27d ago
The dumb mode is when you unplug it from the wall
chorizo 27d ago
There is no obligation to be truthful when it comes to providing PII for advertising. Register using a throwaway email. If an app install is mandatory, use an android emulator (set an uuid if needed). Ideally, the tv won't have ongoing internet access beyond what's required for initial setup. If not possible, at least use PiHole or similar to block telemetry.
- arealaccount 27d ago
  You will still need to agree to the offline spying ToS
forinti 27d ago
This sort of thing should be labelled. Just as food has warnings (too much sugar, too much salt, etc), so electronics should be labelled: "requires online registration" and "captures conversations" and "scans your network".
- account42 27d ago
  That's not enough. We don't allow food companies to just slap on "contains lead" and keep selling poison. And if every device has this label it just becomes useless.
NichoPaolucci 27d ago
I have a pretty nice Samsung that I purchased maybe 5 years ago. When I initially purchased it, it was great. No account needed. Did every thing I wanted from a TV (I want it to be dumb) I refused to update it, because I knew that at some point they would add mandatory accounts or other bloatware. Fantastic for 2 years or so. My gf started living with me and updated it accidentally/didn't know. It now has it's own entire OS that requires 2 accounts - a Google account and a Samsung account, I believe. Devastating. Mandatory accounts for everything. Forcing people to download certain applications. Turning off functionality if there's no subscription to X or Y. I feel we really started to take a step back for software usefulness in the late 20teens...
- cobbzilla 27d ago
  Factory reset?
  - account42 27d ago
    And if that doesn't work, RMA and/or small claims because breaking your device through an update shouldn't be legal.
- indoordin0saur 27d ago
  Never let your TV know your wifi password. Use a firestick or a little PC for streaming, etc.
  - mingus88 27d ago
    I read they’ll find xfinitywifi or any open access point and do it without your consent
    - hdgvhicv 27d ago
      If you join them to a black holed or tarpit said I wonder if that protects against connecting elsewhere. Sure you can connect, but you’ll find all your tcp connections dying.
throw0101d 27d ago
> I wish there was some regulation that would force TVs to have a "dumb" mode. Some manufacturers have "business" lines, for things like kiosks and in-store displays, e.g.: * https://www.samsung.com/us/business/commercial-tvs/all-commercial-tvs/ https://www.samsung.com/us/business/commercial-tvs/all-comme... * https://www.samsung.com/ca/business/smart-signage/ https://www.samsung.com/ca/business/smart-signage/
- philistine 27d ago
  Do not use a display made for commercial kiosk use as a tv. They have terrible response times, brightness levels meant to be seen under sunlight, not for the fine differences of movies.
  - mitxela 27d ago
    Some people have reported using them with success.
    - philistine 26d ago
      Those people need better glasses.
  - account42 26d ago
    Do you have actual benchmarks for that? Bad TV response times usually come for unnecessary signal processing meant to make lower resolution / low frame-rate video look "better" and I don't see why that would be more common rather than less so with commercial displays.
_fat_santa 27d ago
I bought a Hisense TV a few years back and when I set it up, I could not proceed without downloading the companion app. I was curious so I called support and told them that I didn't have a phone and asked how I could activate the TV. Support had no answer for me other than "well you need the app". When I told them I didn't have a phone to install it on they just said "no that's not correct, you must have a phone..."
- stvltvs 27d ago
  You should have told them the required phone was missing from the box.
- anigbrowl 27d ago
  Given how few people have landlines they probably thought you were trying to prank them.
  - mitxela 27d ago
    You can borrow someone's phone or only have a dumbphone.
    - anigbrowl 27d ago
      Of course those are possibilities, as is having a landline. People pranking tech support lines is also a possibility and I suspect a more common one.
      - account42 27d ago
        More common is companies "pranking" their customers by adding unnecessary smartphone requirements. If they are concerned about customers pranking support about not having a smartphone they can easily preempt that by not adding a smartphone requirement in the first place.
        anigbrowl 26d ago
indoordin0saur 27d ago
Most TVs don't require an internet connection. I have an LG tv that I have never allowed to connect to the internet. It complains from time to time, but other than that it gives me no problem. It's connected to my PC through which I stream, watch youtube or play video games.
- account42 26d ago
  Yes and I wonder for the cases where people claim it did require a connection if it actually did or there were "just" dark patterns that made it appear that way - e.g. it may be that an internet connection is required for some smart feature setup flow but you can skip out of that early by declining the boilerplate all-your-rights-are-belong-to-us legalese that most people just blindly agree to.
csallen 27d ago
My Samsung TV has some stupid voice assistant inside of it called Bixby. Not only is it useless, it's extremely annoying. I've had multiple experiences where it muted the show I was watching, so that it could try to listen more closely, after being triggered by something said in the show itself. Samsung's software engineers literally built a TV that interrupts itself. Needless to say, I disabled it. But every week or two, when my TV auto-updates itself, it re-enables Bixby, at least to the degree where it starts listening again, and then mutes whatever I'm watching to ask me if I want to re-enable Bixby. I would pay 2x for a dumber version of my otherwise-excellent TV.
- account42 27d ago
  You mistake was connecting the TV to the internet and accepting the "smart" consent that is required to enable the voice control functionality. Not that that excuses Samsung's behavior but for now you can still use their TVs as dumb screens for a user-respecting device.
- pseudohadamard 27d ago
  > My Samsung TV has some stupid voice assistant inside of it called Bixby. It'd be seriously cool if someone hacked the Samsung TVs and replaced Bixby with Begbie.
JacobKfromIRC 27d ago
My family bought a big Vizio TV around a year ago (IIRC), and I'm pretty sure we didn't have to sign in to anything for it to work. We didn't connect it to the internet. It often prompts for an update to the remote but the prompt goes away on its own if you don't do anything. The model is V4K75X-0810 on firmware 86.710.52.1-4. The "Last Update" field says "Dec 31, 1969 04:00 PM" :D The remote firmware is 6.02.1. I wonder if the reason it prompts for an update is because the TV has a newer remote firmware built-in or if it is just guessing that a newer update is available online. I don't remember if we had to do anything weird to get the TV to set up without internet. I agree regulation is probably needed.

mikestew 27d ago

I was surprised that the first thing I was prompted to do was to download an app and sign up for an account. The TV would not work unless I was signed in I missed the part of your comment where you put it back in the box and returned it. (Yeah, I know, understandable reasons. But that's exactly what I would do if it were going in my house.)

michaelt 27d ago
The problem is for TV manufacturers to change their ways, a lot of TVs will need to be returned. And your average Smart TV buyer is prepared to sign into Netflix, Disney+, Hulu, Prime Video, Crunchyroll, Youtube etc - that's the whole point of buying a smart TV. The only returns will be from the minority who are happy to sign up and sign in for streaming services, but who balk at one more account. Personally, I'm about to return a smart TV (because it sucks) and replace it with a dumb screen. But realistically - I don't imagine these things get returned in sufficient numbers for vendors to change their ways.
- forgotmypw17 27d ago
  It starts with one.
- RajT88 27d ago
  I think we won't get meaningful change until a data broker gets hacked and a huge number of people (including elected officials), have their data on display for all to see.
  - lazide 27d ago
    Why do you think the current admin is always creating so many distractions? That has been happening for years.
  - account42 27d ago
    When have massive leaks ever caused any real change?
- xmprt 27d ago
  > your average Smart TV buyer is prepared to sign into Netflix, Disney+, Hulu, Prime Video, Crunchyroll, Youtube etc I think this is starting to change a bit especially as companies crack down on password sharing. Once the dam breaks, there's gonna be a pretty drastic and unstoppable migration towards the "dumb" TV products + more open alternatives. I'm already seeing a lot of families start to move to DVDs and Blurays for kids who just watch the same 5 movies on repeat anyway. This migration is already happening away from Windows. Gaming was the big moat that Windows had but now with Steam Proton and better Linux alternatives, a ton of people are starting to move away and while it's not a significant majority yet, I think the tides have already turned and there's not much Microsoft can do to turn it back.

codazoda 27d ago

My research is a few months old, but at the time Vizio looked like the least bad option, largely because a lawsuit had pushed them to narrow what they collect.

CharlesW 27d ago

"Commercial displays" are "dumb mode" TVs. Alternatively, you can get an Apple TV and keep the TV off networks or in network jail.

2III7 27d ago
Samsungs commercial grade signage displays have become quite smart and so have LGs.
- lostlogin 27d ago
  > commercial grade signage displays If there is ever a campaign where people smash these, I’m in. Driving around a shopping strip while the damn things flash and change is awful. It’s distracting too, and seems likely to cause crashes.
  - deleted 27d ago
    [deleted]
patch_collector 27d ago
Network jail isn't a 100% for these -- in their testing, they determined that they could connect to the public Comcast networks that Comcast tries to blanket areas with. So even if you don't let it access your own networks, it will look for other ways to phone home.
- tensor 27d ago
  No, they did not find this. They speculated that in the future the tvs "could" do that and that there is precedent with other devices. But despite this being repeated over and over as fact, it is in fact not proven to be the case.
  - whateveracct 27d ago
    The point is more that LG has proven fully untrustworthy so the fact that it is possible is troubling. And ofc, an adversary can operate that way.

autoexec 27d ago

> I was surprised that the first thing I was prompted to do was to download an app and sign up for an account. The TV would not work unless I was signed in (or at the very least the option was so well hidden I didn't see one). Of course the sign up asks for PII like my name and phone number. The only solution we have to this is to return the TV as defective and buy something else until you find something that works without an account or an app. A sane country would have regulations that make spying on you illegal but our government works for corporations instead of the public so they'll never protect us when there's money to be made off of us.

smallmancontrov 27d ago
> our government works for corporations instead of the public Yes, but we cheat ourselves out of change with learned helplessness. Did you see how much hatred the business community directed at Lina Khan when she started dusting off the old antitrust machinery? That happened recently. It can happen again. It was on the ballot, and it will be again.
- ChrisMarshallNY 27d ago
  > Did you see how much hatred the business community directed at Lina Khan Lina Khan truly has the interests of consumers at heart. The hatred was not just right-wing. Many lefties hated her, too. The common thread seems to be billionaires.
  - smallmancontrov 27d ago
    Yes, I saw that too, it was quite remarkable. Still, learned helplessness would have us believe that such an appointment was impossible and yet it happened, and it happened in a Democratic party that leaned "more lib than left" to an even greater degree than it does today, or will in 2028. So when the billionaires twirl their moustaches and say "Silly kids! You can't possibly defeat me, why do you even try?" (or, more realistically, sponsor a lackey to promote that message) one should try to have at least as much gumption as a child facing down a cartoon villain who recognizes this as smack talk rather than deep philosophical truth. The progressives of 100 years ago faced down the first round of Robber Barons and won. We've done this before and we can do it again.

sdcfgy 27d ago

This is one of the many reasons I haven't owned a TV for the last 5 years. I just watch stuff on the computer, or not at all. It's actually nice not having it looming over me.

Grombobulous 27d ago
I love my friend’s house that has no TV and that’s exactly what they do. The room aesthetically looks so nice without the screen in it. However, the laptop solution tends to only work if you’re single or have no family. The TV is unfortunately a very useful device.
- no_wizard 27d ago
  Projectors are still valid, and often superior, alternatives to TVs. They’re definitely more work to get right though
  - kuboble 27d ago
    Welp... I bought recently a projector. It wouldn't start in a dumb mode without first establishing internet connection and a Google account.
  - Grombobulous 27d ago
    Interesting idea I never thought of, though for my purposes my room gets way too much natural light for a projector to be viable.
    - cobbzilla 27d ago
      blackout shades go a long way, but if you’ve got huge bay windows that’s probably too much. If it’s close to good, and you need a little more brightness, there are newer screens that reflect much more light. more reflective = pricier, but there’s a decent value/sweet spot.
      - 27d ago

Mindwipe 27d ago

You can literally just buy a Sony and do this. And several other manufacturers that run Google TV can be switched to dumb mode.

lostlogin 27d ago
Sony tv with an AppleTV and a pihole.

sidewndr46 27d ago

The dumb mode is when you unplug it from the wall

chorizo 27d ago

There is no obligation to be truthful when it comes to providing PII for advertising. Register using a throwaway email. If an app install is mandatory, use an android emulator (set an uuid if needed). Ideally, the tv won't have ongoing internet access beyond what's required for initial setup. If not possible, at least use PiHole or similar to block telemetry.

arealaccount 27d ago
You will still need to agree to the offline spying ToS

forinti 27d ago

This sort of thing should be labelled. Just as food has warnings (too much sugar, too much salt, etc), so electronics should be labelled: "requires online registration" and "captures conversations" and "scans your network".

account42 27d ago
That's not enough. We don't allow food companies to just slap on "contains lead" and keep selling poison. And if every device has this label it just becomes useless.

NichoPaolucci 27d ago

I have a pretty nice Samsung that I purchased maybe 5 years ago. When I initially purchased it, it was great. No account needed. Did every thing I wanted from a TV (I want it to be dumb) I refused to update it, because I knew that at some point they would add mandatory accounts or other bloatware. Fantastic for 2 years or so. My gf started living with me and updated it accidentally/didn't know. It now has it's own entire OS that requires 2 accounts - a Google account and a Samsung account, I believe. Devastating. Mandatory accounts for everything. Forcing people to download certain applications. Turning off functionality if there's no subscription to X or Y. I feel we really started to take a step back for software usefulness in the late 20teens...

cobbzilla 27d ago
Factory reset?
- account42 27d ago
  And if that doesn't work, RMA and/or small claims because breaking your device through an update shouldn't be legal.
indoordin0saur 27d ago
Never let your TV know your wifi password. Use a firestick or a little PC for streaming, etc.
- mingus88 27d ago
  I read they’ll find xfinitywifi or any open access point and do it without your consent
  - hdgvhicv 27d ago
    If you join them to a black holed or tarpit said I wonder if that protects against connecting elsewhere. Sure you can connect, but you’ll find all your tcp connections dying.

throw0101d 27d ago

> I wish there was some regulation that would force TVs to have a "dumb" mode. Some manufacturers have "business" lines, for things like kiosks and in-store displays, e.g.: * https://www.samsung.com/us/business/commercial-tvs/all-commercial-tvs/ https://www.samsung.com/us/business/commercial-tvs/all-comme... * https://www.samsung.com/ca/business/smart-signage/ https://www.samsung.com/ca/business/smart-signage/

philistine 27d ago
Do not use a display made for commercial kiosk use as a tv. They have terrible response times, brightness levels meant to be seen under sunlight, not for the fine differences of movies.
- mitxela 27d ago
  Some people have reported using them with success.
  - philistine 26d ago
    Those people need better glasses.
- account42 26d ago
  Do you have actual benchmarks for that? Bad TV response times usually come for unnecessary signal processing meant to make lower resolution / low frame-rate video look "better" and I don't see why that would be more common rather than less so with commercial displays.

_fat_santa 27d ago

I bought a Hisense TV a few years back and when I set it up, I could not proceed without downloading the companion app. I was curious so I called support and told them that I didn't have a phone and asked how I could activate the TV. Support had no answer for me other than "well you need the app". When I told them I didn't have a phone to install it on they just said "no that's not correct, you must have a phone..."

stvltvs 27d ago
You should have told them the required phone was missing from the box.
anigbrowl 27d ago
Given how few people have landlines they probably thought you were trying to prank them.
- mitxela 27d ago
  You can borrow someone's phone or only have a dumbphone.
  - anigbrowl 27d ago
    Of course those are possibilities, as is having a landline. People pranking tech support lines is also a possibility and I suspect a more common one.
    - account42 27d ago
      More common is companies "pranking" their customers by adding unnecessary smartphone requirements. If they are concerned about customers pranking support about not having a smartphone they can easily preempt that by not adding a smartphone requirement in the first place.
      - anigbrowl 26d ago

indoordin0saur 27d ago

Most TVs don't require an internet connection. I have an LG tv that I have never allowed to connect to the internet. It complains from time to time, but other than that it gives me no problem. It's connected to my PC through which I stream, watch youtube or play video games.

account42 26d ago
Yes and I wonder for the cases where people claim it did require a connection if it actually did or there were "just" dark patterns that made it appear that way - e.g. it may be that an internet connection is required for some smart feature setup flow but you can skip out of that early by declining the boilerplate all-your-rights-are-belong-to-us legalese that most people just blindly agree to.

csallen 27d ago

My Samsung TV has some stupid voice assistant inside of it called Bixby. Not only is it useless, it's extremely annoying. I've had multiple experiences where it muted the show I was watching, so that it could try to listen more closely, after being triggered by something said in the show itself. Samsung's software engineers literally built a TV that interrupts itself. Needless to say, I disabled it. But every week or two, when my TV auto-updates itself, it re-enables Bixby, at least to the degree where it starts listening again, and then mutes whatever I'm watching to ask me if I want to re-enable Bixby. I would pay 2x for a dumber version of my otherwise-excellent TV.

account42 27d ago
You mistake was connecting the TV to the internet and accepting the "smart" consent that is required to enable the voice control functionality. Not that that excuses Samsung's behavior but for now you can still use their TVs as dumb screens for a user-respecting device.
pseudohadamard 27d ago
> My Samsung TV has some stupid voice assistant inside of it called Bixby. It'd be seriously cool if someone hacked the Samsung TVs and replaced Bixby with Begbie.

JacobKfromIRC 27d ago

My family bought a big Vizio TV around a year ago (IIRC), and I'm pretty sure we didn't have to sign in to anything for it to work. We didn't connect it to the internet. It often prompts for an update to the remote but the prompt goes away on its own if you don't do anything. The model is V4K75X-0810 on firmware 86.710.52.1-4. The "Last Update" field says "Dec 31, 1969 04:00 PM" :D The remote firmware is 6.02.1. I wonder if the reason it prompts for an update is because the TV has a newer remote firmware built-in or if it is just guessing that a newer update is available online. I don't remember if we had to do anything weird to get the TV to set up without internet. I agree regulation is probably needed.