3 ms·

> being told they're all nazis (I'm sure some of them are, but nowhere near all) Many of their senior leaders are Nazis. The head of the party in the state of

> being told they're all nazis (I'm sure some of them are, but nowhere near all) Many of their senior leaders are Nazis. The head of the party in the state of Thuringia used to write pro-Hitler articles under a pseudonym. > ignoring and belittling a large group and ignoring their concerns entirely The AfD doesn't address their problems either. It tells them that all of their problems are because of foreigners and immigrants. What's the AfD's solution for affordable housing? Deport immigrants to free up apartments. What's their solution for creating jobs? Deport immigrants. This is a party that wants to deport all German citizens who don't have a sufficient quantum of German blood. There's no need to pretend the party is anything other than what it is: a fascist party.

martin_bech 26d ago
Whats your solution to the immigration problem in Germany?
- NikolaNovak 26d ago
  That's a trick question though, and it cunningly pre-supposes / takes-for-granted there IS an "immigration problem", and implicitly that "the immigration problem is the root cause of other problems" (as opposed to, "there are real problems, and some people would like you to think they're because of immigration").
  - antisthenes 26d ago
    This kind of non-answer is exactly what leads to far-right parties getting more followers. Tax paying citizens who want their concerns addressed absolutely LOVE hearing that "Ackchyually, your problem doesn't exist and is all in your head". P.S. - I have no skin in the game regarding EU immigration policies, just making an honest observation about engaging with people who might have opposing views.
    - NikolaNovak 26d ago
      That's fair, but context is everything :) I approached it as a discussion on Hacker News, and I think my implicit assumption (which can be challenged!) is that taking a structured, logical approach benefits us all. When I saw what I perceive as a logical fallacy or assumption that takes us on an unproductive path, intended or not, I called it out. In other venues, different approach may be more applicable. To your other point, in case it wasn't clear: * I absolutely do not think there's no problem, or that it's in anybody's head. I think there are a LOT of problems! * At the same time, I strongly think that not-nice, dishonest people are working very very hard, very very consistently, to create an image that somehow immigrants are the root causes of these problems. This has happened myriad times in history, and may sadly be repeating itself. The only answer I ever have for this is, to your point, a non-answer: it's education and information. I think most people propagating immigration as root of all evil are fairly aware that mathematically, socially, statistically, philosophically, logically, this is not supported. It's just intentional fallacy after intentional fallacy, starting with the "Lump of Labor Fallacy". It's clear on its face that if I had 100 people with 100 jobs yesterday, bringing 10 more people won't just magically take jobs without also creating/generating jobs! So I'm happy to discuss immigration problems at any length - but again, I think it's an intentional distraction. To your point, there ARE real problems, of housing and equality and prices and job market, and bad people are trying to make us think they're caused by immigrants, whether for personal profit or because they themselves are part of the actual root cause :-/
      - martin_bech 26d ago
        I find your response insulting, and as the other poster called you out, this is exactly why people are flocking to Afd.. that the “elite” dont take their problems seriously. Im in Denmark and we have tried throwing money and ressources at the issue for 50 years, integration effort after integration effort, and for us the issue isnt money or jobs, we are a rich country with very little unemployment, the issue is gangs, violence, rape, where immigrants are far ahead of anyone.. Just yesterday a new article broke from one of the largest most respected newspapers.. we now face child immigrant gangs of 11-18 year olds, that commit violence. Paywaled link: https://www.berlingske.dk/indland/markant-flere-boern-er-involveret-i-voldssager-vi-er-som-samfund-noedt-til-at-vaere-bekymret https://www.berlingske.dk/indland/markant-flere-boern-er-inv...
  - balarjin 26d ago
    Fair enough, it should be asked in a neutral way. "Voters perceive problems. As is common in a democracy, voters elect people who propose solutions. Why is no other political party proposing solutions voters see as worth voting for?" If you don't think the problems are real, make the case to the voters. As far as I can tell, other political parties have no better answer than name-calling. Am I missing some politician/party that is actually making a real argument?
    - beej71 25d ago
      > If you don't think the problems are real, make the case to the voters. Let's say we could demonstrate the problems aren't real beyond any shadow of a doubt. Do you think that would change votes appreciably?
- NoMoreNicksLeft 26d ago
  What immigration problem? Immigrants are wonderful. Things have only improved in Germany with immigration. It is wrong and unethical to keep immigrants out of your country, you have no right to do so.
  - r_lee 26d ago
    what? why can't I then migrate to the US or whatever country I wanna go to?
    - balarjin 26d ago
      The US has one immigration system for honest law-following people (Visas, green cards, etc.) and a second system for people who don't follow rules (walk in from Mexico, overstay a Visa, etc.)
cyberpunk 26d ago
Right, I agree. But what makes people vote for this kind of stuff? It's not like 44% of saxon-anhalt just wakes up overnight and decides "Hey, you know what...". I think it must grow over years of their feelings/opinions being ignored. My only point was that, perhaps, we should think about these causes and why the core political parties can't solve them; otherwise it's only going to get worse -- hell at this rate they'll actually get enough people onboard to achieve their goals within a few cycles.
- DiogenesKynikos 25d ago
  The fall of East Germany, which led to mass unemployment in the East (including Saxony-Anhalt). The Thatcher-Reagan-style reforms that the Social Democrats and Greens pushed through in the early 2000s, which reduced the social safety net and created new types of less-secure temporary work. In particular, these reforms ended the Social Democrats as a mass party in Germany. The 2008 financial crisis, which weighed heavily on Europe for years. The rise in inflation, caused by Covid and wars in Ukraine and Iran. As in the 1930s, right-wing parties blame everything on immigrants, foreigners and minorities, even though they're not responsible for any of the above.
r_lee 26d ago
there's clearly been a problem with migrants, why did no party address these issues? if you could make them powerless by just addressing the issue, why have no parties done that? why hand power to the AfD?
- frm88 25d ago
  There has been a big problem with migrants in the syrian civil war, most of which are gone again. Without immigrants the ageing German population has no chance to keep their social safety net and as we see in the US, even when the social safety net is significantly reduced, the immigrant scarecrow will still have the desired effect for the populists because the immigrants are not the problem, they make, however a phenomenal scapegoat and will always appeal to the general populace. In consequence, focussing solely on immigration won't solve the fundamental problems and certainly won't help when the first waves of hungry climate refugees march north. The consequences are border tightening and rearming and repopulating the military and marching confidently in the completely wrong direction. Dialog is dead and so is diplomacy. Re-establish communication, not twitter. Collaborate on a wide front, analyse the data, compile potential solutions, discuss them, etablish them. Talk to Russia, talk to Ukraine, Defang NATO or abolish it. Talk to Iran. Stop the US propagating pseudo diplomacy via Kushner and send real diplomats. Look to invest in R&D for recycling techniques, carbon sequestering, substitutes for plastics, redirect military funding to massively expand renewable energy. Close all European borders the next time the US starts a war. There is so much to do.
constantius 26d ago
You're talking about the party. You're not saying anything wrong, but parent was talking about the voters. It is true that the issues of people who vote far-right are ridiculed, and they themselves are demonised, which the parent holds, and I agree, is unproductive. Far-right voters are largely the losers of globalisation/economic growth trying whatever they can to improve their situation: the phenomenon of many of these voters alternating between far-right and far-left from one election to the other is one of many indicators of what their real goal is, ie improving their situation. Re migration: it does have negative effects on the economically marginalised, which the readership of HN and the talking heads in mainstream media are largely not. Among these are increasing housing costs, downward pressure on salaries, rapid and alienating shifts in cultural (and I mean cultural, not racial) makeup of cities and neighbourhoods: none of this should be controversial. The establishment parties (so right and "left" like SPD, Labour, PS) have financial incentives to increase migration, which they do (see the Boris wave in the UK). While migration is not an inherent evil at all, the way it's done by these parties does lead to negative effects, which adds one reason among many to vote for the far-right. So the short-term solution (curbing migration) is the simple and popular answer. The long-term solution (curbing capitalism) is harder and unpopular, so radical left parties unfortunately get fewer votes (except in France, where there's a real chance of the LFI showing a better path).

martin_bech 26d ago

Whats your solution to the immigration problem in Germany?

NikolaNovak 26d ago
That's a trick question though, and it cunningly pre-supposes / takes-for-granted there IS an "immigration problem", and implicitly that "the immigration problem is the root cause of other problems" (as opposed to, "there are real problems, and some people would like you to think they're because of immigration").
- antisthenes 26d ago
  This kind of non-answer is exactly what leads to far-right parties getting more followers. Tax paying citizens who want their concerns addressed absolutely LOVE hearing that "Ackchyually, your problem doesn't exist and is all in your head". P.S. - I have no skin in the game regarding EU immigration policies, just making an honest observation about engaging with people who might have opposing views.
  - NikolaNovak 26d ago
    That's fair, but context is everything :) I approached it as a discussion on Hacker News, and I think my implicit assumption (which can be challenged!) is that taking a structured, logical approach benefits us all. When I saw what I perceive as a logical fallacy or assumption that takes us on an unproductive path, intended or not, I called it out. In other venues, different approach may be more applicable. To your other point, in case it wasn't clear: * I absolutely do not think there's no problem, or that it's in anybody's head. I think there are a LOT of problems! * At the same time, I strongly think that not-nice, dishonest people are working very very hard, very very consistently, to create an image that somehow immigrants are the root causes of these problems. This has happened myriad times in history, and may sadly be repeating itself. The only answer I ever have for this is, to your point, a non-answer: it's education and information. I think most people propagating immigration as root of all evil are fairly aware that mathematically, socially, statistically, philosophically, logically, this is not supported. It's just intentional fallacy after intentional fallacy, starting with the "Lump of Labor Fallacy". It's clear on its face that if I had 100 people with 100 jobs yesterday, bringing 10 more people won't just magically take jobs without also creating/generating jobs! So I'm happy to discuss immigration problems at any length - but again, I think it's an intentional distraction. To your point, there ARE real problems, of housing and equality and prices and job market, and bad people are trying to make us think they're caused by immigrants, whether for personal profit or because they themselves are part of the actual root cause :-/
    - martin_bech 26d ago
      I find your response insulting, and as the other poster called you out, this is exactly why people are flocking to Afd.. that the “elite” dont take their problems seriously. Im in Denmark and we have tried throwing money and ressources at the issue for 50 years, integration effort after integration effort, and for us the issue isnt money or jobs, we are a rich country with very little unemployment, the issue is gangs, violence, rape, where immigrants are far ahead of anyone.. Just yesterday a new article broke from one of the largest most respected newspapers.. we now face child immigrant gangs of 11-18 year olds, that commit violence. Paywaled link: https://www.berlingske.dk/indland/markant-flere-boern-er-involveret-i-voldssager-vi-er-som-samfund-noedt-til-at-vaere-bekymret https://www.berlingske.dk/indland/markant-flere-boern-er-inv...
- balarjin 26d ago
  Fair enough, it should be asked in a neutral way. "Voters perceive problems. As is common in a democracy, voters elect people who propose solutions. Why is no other political party proposing solutions voters see as worth voting for?" If you don't think the problems are real, make the case to the voters. As far as I can tell, other political parties have no better answer than name-calling. Am I missing some politician/party that is actually making a real argument?
  - beej71 25d ago
    > If you don't think the problems are real, make the case to the voters. Let's say we could demonstrate the problems aren't real beyond any shadow of a doubt. Do you think that would change votes appreciably?
NoMoreNicksLeft 26d ago
What immigration problem? Immigrants are wonderful. Things have only improved in Germany with immigration. It is wrong and unethical to keep immigrants out of your country, you have no right to do so.
- r_lee 26d ago
  what? why can't I then migrate to the US or whatever country I wanna go to?
  - balarjin 26d ago
    The US has one immigration system for honest law-following people (Visas, green cards, etc.) and a second system for people who don't follow rules (walk in from Mexico, overstay a Visa, etc.)

cyberpunk 26d ago

Right, I agree. But what makes people vote for this kind of stuff? It's not like 44% of saxon-anhalt just wakes up overnight and decides "Hey, you know what...". I think it must grow over years of their feelings/opinions being ignored. My only point was that, perhaps, we should think about these causes and why the core political parties can't solve them; otherwise it's only going to get worse -- hell at this rate they'll actually get enough people onboard to achieve their goals within a few cycles.

DiogenesKynikos 25d ago
The fall of East Germany, which led to mass unemployment in the East (including Saxony-Anhalt). The Thatcher-Reagan-style reforms that the Social Democrats and Greens pushed through in the early 2000s, which reduced the social safety net and created new types of less-secure temporary work. In particular, these reforms ended the Social Democrats as a mass party in Germany. The 2008 financial crisis, which weighed heavily on Europe for years. The rise in inflation, caused by Covid and wars in Ukraine and Iran. As in the 1930s, right-wing parties blame everything on immigrants, foreigners and minorities, even though they're not responsible for any of the above.

r_lee 26d ago

there's clearly been a problem with migrants, why did no party address these issues? if you could make them powerless by just addressing the issue, why have no parties done that? why hand power to the AfD?

frm88 25d ago
There has been a big problem with migrants in the syrian civil war, most of which are gone again. Without immigrants the ageing German population has no chance to keep their social safety net and as we see in the US, even when the social safety net is significantly reduced, the immigrant scarecrow will still have the desired effect for the populists because the immigrants are not the problem, they make, however a phenomenal scapegoat and will always appeal to the general populace. In consequence, focussing solely on immigration won't solve the fundamental problems and certainly won't help when the first waves of hungry climate refugees march north. The consequences are border tightening and rearming and repopulating the military and marching confidently in the completely wrong direction. Dialog is dead and so is diplomacy. Re-establish communication, not twitter. Collaborate on a wide front, analyse the data, compile potential solutions, discuss them, etablish them. Talk to Russia, talk to Ukraine, Defang NATO or abolish it. Talk to Iran. Stop the US propagating pseudo diplomacy via Kushner and send real diplomats. Look to invest in R&D for recycling techniques, carbon sequestering, substitutes for plastics, redirect military funding to massively expand renewable energy. Close all European borders the next time the US starts a war. There is so much to do.

constantius 26d ago

You're talking about the party. You're not saying anything wrong, but parent was talking about the voters. It is true that the issues of people who vote far-right are ridiculed, and they themselves are demonised, which the parent holds, and I agree, is unproductive. Far-right voters are largely the losers of globalisation/economic growth trying whatever they can to improve their situation: the phenomenon of many of these voters alternating between far-right and far-left from one election to the other is one of many indicators of what their real goal is, ie improving their situation. Re migration: it does have negative effects on the economically marginalised, which the readership of HN and the talking heads in mainstream media are largely not. Among these are increasing housing costs, downward pressure on salaries, rapid and alienating shifts in cultural (and I mean cultural, not racial) makeup of cities and neighbourhoods: none of this should be controversial. The establishment parties (so right and "left" like SPD, Labour, PS) have financial incentives to increase migration, which they do (see the Boris wave in the UK). While migration is not an inherent evil at all, the way it's done by these parties does lead to negative effects, which adds one reason among many to vote for the far-right. So the short-term solution (curbing migration) is the simple and popular answer. The long-term solution (curbing capitalism) is harder and unpopular, so radical left parties unfortunately get fewer votes (except in France, where there's a real chance of the LFI showing a better path).