4 ms·

much of it can be expressed via this visual which made the rounds a few years ago https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1519735033950470144/photo/1 https://x.com/elonm

by deusex_ 26d ago

much of it can be expressed via this visual which made the rounds a few years ago https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1519735033950470144/photo/1 https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1519735033950470144/photo/1? the topics have different emphasis than in the US, but the principle remains. immigration, de-industrialization, green politics, erosion of trust based society

aappleby 26d ago
anyone who thinks "woke" is a valid counterargument is not worth listening to.
- hagbard_c 26d ago
  A rose by any other name etc. The moniker may change once every few years - even A. Occasional Cortex recently agreed that 'Woke 1.0 was craaaazy' [1] - but the beast never loses its stripes. Maybe the next term will be 'Woke 2.0', maybe something else but seeing how as this terminology comes from inside the narrative generator it can not be denied that it describes something real and as such claiming that those who use such terms that have fallen by the wayside '[are] not worth listening to' is the equivalent of loudly saying NA NA NA I DON'T HEAR YOU NA NA NA. Woke 1.0 was 'crazy' indeed, good that this can now be said. The successor will probably be just as crazy but in some different way. It most likely will be some throwback to classical marxist tropes instead of the intersectional mess which best describes 'Woke 1.0' because younger generations never experienced the reality of the Soviet bloc, never were taught the reality of life under communism in school and as such are easy targets for socialist propaganda, viz. the success of the DSA. This time it will surely work, people, real socialism has never been tried after all... [1] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2026/aug/15/aoc-woke-1 https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2026/aug/15/aoc-wo...
  - croisillon 25d ago
    it's funny because the reference to your quote of her shows it was not a quote of her we should call that hagbardisms
    - hagbard_c 25d ago
      If you insist on believing the story she told of that being said by 'a political friend', sure. Did you listen to the interview she gave? I did. It sounded very much like the 'politician friend' was made up from thin air to enable her to bring this quote into the conversation. It was she who produced the quote, the 'politician friend' has not been heard from. In other words, believe what you want but first listen to that interview?
      - croisillon 24d ago
        it's funny you can't stop claiming to understand everything from politics but still can't imagine that there actually are other politicians (Chi Ossé's comments made the rounds before AOC repeated it) out there than your favorite target that too should we call hagbardisms
        hagbard_c 24d ago
        We're talking politics here so that bit about 'claiming to understand everything from politics' is misplaced. Call it what you want, everything needs to be turned into a meme after all. I call it 'observations' and go by those, not by narrative or attempts at memecasting. Who is my favourite target by the way? As far as I can remember this is the first time I mentioned this politico on this - or any other - forum. Also, could you maybe say something about the actual subject here which is the grand-grand-grand-grandparent post stating that 'anyone who thinks "woke" is a valid counterpoint is not worth listening to'? You seem to be trying to do the same when it comes to what you're trying to call 'hagbardisms'. You haven't actually touched the original subject yet, what about it?
        croisillon 24d ago
        my point of view is simple: anyone who thinks "woke" is a valid counterargument is not worth listening to
        23d ago
RC_ITR 26d ago
This is a very obviously biased argument that both sides make about themselves. The AfD literally published a manifesto of new and notably more conservative policy goals in 2017. They do not claim to have the political stance of Germany 25 years ago, they themselves say that they are something new (For example, point 1 is an adoption of Swiss-style direct democracy, which is a notable shift to the right). I encourage you to think much more deeply than "I saw this meme and it resonated with me," because the same is true of the American Tight, despite Elon's claim (Regan, for example, was very famously against Tariffing Canada).
- sajithdilshan 26d ago
  > For example, point 1 is an adoption of Swiss-style direct democracy, which is a notable shift to the right Since when did direct democracy became a right wing concept?
  - RC_ITR 25d ago
    >Since when did direct democracy became a right wing concept? It's intended to make Parliament powerless (when you read the document, I'm sure you saw that part), so, I'd say it became a right wing concept when it was proposed by a far-right political party in 2017 to move Germany to the right. You may be interested in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority
    - sajithdilshan 25d ago
      So next time if a far right political party suggest that everyone should eat vegetables for good health, then eating vegetables becomes a far right concept?
      - RC_ITR 25d ago
        Controlling what people eat is definitely authoritarian/right-wing. For a historic example, you may be interested in: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_for_Grain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_for_Grain Maybe try a different example to make your point?
cassepipe 26d ago
I guess this must be extremely subjective because for 15 years now in my country the far-right has been "on the rise" and all the politicians, and a lot of the media, now only talk about the immigration, the immigration and all the "normal" right-wingers, centrists and even soft left try to compete for being the one who will say the least "politically correct" thing, that is something about how immigration is not compatible with our culture or something. The right-wing party has split and one part is now allied with the far-right party. My impression is that the overton window has gone further and further to the right so chacun voit midi à sa porte
JaggerJo 26d ago
The real underlying issue is the economic pressure - much worse in East Germany than in West Germany. People have problems, but the real problems are not immigration or green politics. IMO they explain it well here: Inside The Rise of Germany's New Far-Right https://youtu.be/l2SjWowpynY?si=9P4R6CtrNrXEsYx0 https://youtu.be/l2SjWowpynY?si=9P4R6CtrNrXEsYx0

by deusex_ 26d ago

aappleby 26d ago

anyone who thinks "woke" is a valid counterargument is not worth listening to.

hagbard_c 26d ago
A rose by any other name etc. The moniker may change once every few years - even A. Occasional Cortex recently agreed that 'Woke 1.0 was craaaazy' [1] - but the beast never loses its stripes. Maybe the next term will be 'Woke 2.0', maybe something else but seeing how as this terminology comes from inside the narrative generator it can not be denied that it describes something real and as such claiming that those who use such terms that have fallen by the wayside '[are] not worth listening to' is the equivalent of loudly saying NA NA NA I DON'T HEAR YOU NA NA NA. Woke 1.0 was 'crazy' indeed, good that this can now be said. The successor will probably be just as crazy but in some different way. It most likely will be some throwback to classical marxist tropes instead of the intersectional mess which best describes 'Woke 1.0' because younger generations never experienced the reality of the Soviet bloc, never were taught the reality of life under communism in school and as such are easy targets for socialist propaganda, viz. the success of the DSA. This time it will surely work, people, real socialism has never been tried after all... [1] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2026/aug/15/aoc-woke-1 https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2026/aug/15/aoc-wo...
- croisillon 25d ago
  it's funny because the reference to your quote of her shows it was not a quote of her we should call that hagbardisms
  - hagbard_c 25d ago
    If you insist on believing the story she told of that being said by 'a political friend', sure. Did you listen to the interview she gave? I did. It sounded very much like the 'politician friend' was made up from thin air to enable her to bring this quote into the conversation. It was she who produced the quote, the 'politician friend' has not been heard from. In other words, believe what you want but first listen to that interview?
    - croisillon 24d ago
      it's funny you can't stop claiming to understand everything from politics but still can't imagine that there actually are other politicians (Chi Ossé's comments made the rounds before AOC repeated it) out there than your favorite target that too should we call hagbardisms
      - hagbard_c 24d ago
        We're talking politics here so that bit about 'claiming to understand everything from politics' is misplaced. Call it what you want, everything needs to be turned into a meme after all. I call it 'observations' and go by those, not by narrative or attempts at memecasting. Who is my favourite target by the way? As far as I can remember this is the first time I mentioned this politico on this - or any other - forum. Also, could you maybe say something about the actual subject here which is the grand-grand-grand-grandparent post stating that 'anyone who thinks "woke" is a valid counterpoint is not worth listening to'? You seem to be trying to do the same when it comes to what you're trying to call 'hagbardisms'. You haven't actually touched the original subject yet, what about it?
        croisillon 24d ago
        my point of view is simple: anyone who thinks "woke" is a valid counterargument is not worth listening to
        23d ago

RC_ITR 26d ago

This is a very obviously biased argument that both sides make about themselves. The AfD literally published a manifesto of new and notably more conservative policy goals in 2017. They do not claim to have the political stance of Germany 25 years ago, they themselves say that they are something new (For example, point 1 is an adoption of Swiss-style direct democracy, which is a notable shift to the right). I encourage you to think much more deeply than "I saw this meme and it resonated with me," because the same is true of the American Tight, despite Elon's claim (Regan, for example, was very famously against Tariffing Canada).

sajithdilshan 26d ago
> For example, point 1 is an adoption of Swiss-style direct democracy, which is a notable shift to the right Since when did direct democracy became a right wing concept?
- RC_ITR 25d ago
  >Since when did direct democracy became a right wing concept? It's intended to make Parliament powerless (when you read the document, I'm sure you saw that part), so, I'd say it became a right wing concept when it was proposed by a far-right political party in 2017 to move Germany to the right. You may be interested in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority
  - sajithdilshan 25d ago
    So next time if a far right political party suggest that everyone should eat vegetables for good health, then eating vegetables becomes a far right concept?
    - RC_ITR 25d ago
      Controlling what people eat is definitely authoritarian/right-wing. For a historic example, you may be interested in: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_for_Grain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_for_Grain Maybe try a different example to make your point?

cassepipe 26d ago

I guess this must be extremely subjective because for 15 years now in my country the far-right has been "on the rise" and all the politicians, and a lot of the media, now only talk about the immigration, the immigration and all the "normal" right-wingers, centrists and even soft left try to compete for being the one who will say the least "politically correct" thing, that is something about how immigration is not compatible with our culture or something. The right-wing party has split and one part is now allied with the far-right party. My impression is that the overton window has gone further and further to the right so chacun voit midi à sa porte

JaggerJo 26d ago

The real underlying issue is the economic pressure - much worse in East Germany than in West Germany. People have problems, but the real problems are not immigration or green politics. IMO they explain it well here: Inside The Rise of Germany's New Far-Right https://youtu.be/l2SjWowpynY?si=9P4R6CtrNrXEsYx0 https://youtu.be/l2SjWowpynY?si=9P4R6CtrNrXEsYx0