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> I'm curious - are you postulating that the only way to cause poorer students to improve their educational outcomes is via peer effects with richer students?

> I'm curious - are you postulating that the only way to cause poorer students to improve their educational outcomes is via peer effects with richer students? What I'm really postulating that the only way to improve the educational outcomes of students that come from families who don't emphasize education is to surround them with students who come from families that do emphasize education. So my initial statement assumes that poor students come from families that don't emphasize education, while rich students come from families that do. That is a generalization that applies primarily to black and Hispanic students, as there are many poor Asian immigrant families who emphasize education - their children have gone on to be quite successful. But as we all know, the educational problem is with black and Hispanic students. When you eliminate them from the picture, American students do quite well in comparison to European and Asian students[0]. > there is a very good non-racist reason for this: while their children might improve the ghetto children's outcomes, the ghetto children might harm the richer children's outcomes. Yes, this is certainly possible, and is the most common argument utilized by the rich parents when faced with charges of racism towards poor blacks and Latinos. 0: http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2010/12/amazing-truth-about-pisa-scores-usa.html http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2010/12/amazing-truth-abou...

ronnier 14y ago
>What I'm really postulating that the only way to improve the educational outcomes of students that come from families who don't emphasize education is to surround them with students who come from families that do emphasize education. I was the product of one of these experiments. The school district I lived in was the result of a redistricting to pull in us white students into a large neighboring nonwhite school. I can guarantee I didn't improve the educational outcomes for any of my classmates. And all I received from it was random beatings, violent attacks against me, and a subpar education. I did learn something though... Once out, I studied my ass off and work as hard as possible so that neither I nor my children will live through such an experiment again.
- w1ntermute 14y ago
  > The school district I lived in was the result of a redistricting to pull in us white students into a large neighboring nonwhite school. Sounds like this was done the wrong way around. What percentage of the students at your school were white? You got your ass beat because you were in the minority, and you were in their school. The best way to change behavior is to intimidate the students through intense peer pressure. If the minority students are going to a school where they are the minority (and properly integrated into the student body), the results will be very different from what you experienced.
  - gritzko 14y ago
    Normal people feel uncomfortable betting their children to prove somebody's else theories...
  - Matti 14y ago
    "In perhaps the biggest surprise, Armor's studies found that black elementary students who go to magnet schools (which have the highest percentages of whites) score no better on standardized tests than do blacks who go to all-black nonmagnet schools.(97) In short, Armor found that, contrary to the notion on which the whole desegregation plan was founded--that going to school with middle-class whites would increase blacks' achievement--the Kansas City experiment showed that "integration has no effect."(98)" http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-298.html http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-298.html
    - w1ntermute 14y ago
      First of all, one person's opinion does not make a truth. Second, and more importantly, many of these desegregation programs do not achieve true integration. Sure the black students are in the same school as the white students, but they're not in the same classrooms as the white students who are doing well in their studies. This is exactly what I experienced. You also have to ask questions like "Are these students receiving extra help to make up for what they aren't getting at home? Do they feel isolated because they're the only poor black student in the class, or do they feel motivated to find a way to fit in with the high-achieving white students?" That is the difference between desegregation and integration.
- andrewvc 14y ago
  Yeah, I'm in a similar camp. I'm white, and a product of the LAUSD (Los Angeles) magnet program, which attempted to integrate schools well. Problem is, you're mostly integrating white kids with the minority kids who have parents motivated enough to put them in the magnet program. My schools had both magnet and non magnet kids in them. What this wound up accomplishing was pretty obvious, there was segregation between the two populations. Walking out at lunch one could see the school was divided by a stark line, a line that was about 70% white where the magnet kids hung out, and mixed elsewhere. It probably helped some people from minorities in the magnet, but I'm sure the dividing line just reinforced race and class barriers in the minds of those on both sides.
yummyfajitas 14y ago
This idea also brings up a moral question - how do you justify forcing children of the rich to suffer in order to counteract the bad parenting habits of the poor?
- w1ntermute 14y ago
  The same way you justify progressive taxation, I suppose. Moreover, the government already does many (other) blatantly immoral things in the name of the (expected) results. But I am less concerned with the morality of it and more concerned with the practicality. If the children of the rich do start suffering, they will simply pull their children out of the public schools, putting you back at square one.
- theorique 14y ago
  It's not justifiable, but more than that, it's not even tenable. Rich "enough" parents (for some value of enough) will invest to send their kids to boarding school in London or Zurich rather than let them be the "beneficiaries" of a social engineering experiment.
- Daniel_Newby 14y ago
  The poor are poor because they have an average IQ in the 80s, barely above mental retardation. Their children are the same way because it is genetic. The school busing amd integration programs are about political subjugation of the high class, not assistance to the lower class.
  - eropple 14y ago
    Demonstrably untrue and profoundly disturbed.
    - Daniel_Newby 14y ago
      Demonstrate it then.
      - 14y ago
MaysonL 14y ago
What I'm really postulating that the only way to improve the educational outcomes of students that come from families who don't emphasize education is to surround them with students who come from families that do emphasize education. The other way is to turn the family that doesn't emphasize education into one that does. Example: Harlem Children's Zone. http://www.hcz.org/ http://www.hcz.org/
mc32 14y ago
>What I'm really postulating that the only way to improve the educational outcomes of students that come from families who don't emphasize education is to surround them with students who come from families that do emphasize education. I think this works to some degree, but could depend on ratio. One can't ship underperformers into PaloAlto High or Cupertino and overwhelm the student body --it's not as if the influence is one-way. >Yes, this is certainly possible, and is the most common argument utilized by the rich parents when faced with charges of racism towards poor blacks and Latinos. I think looking at homogenous societies (or even states) and looking at achievers vs performers attitudes in those societies. How do parents there deal with these issues? If this argument is used, and those societies are homogenous, then it can't be racist but classist (or even pedagogical).

ronnier 14y ago

>What I'm really postulating that the only way to improve the educational outcomes of students that come from families who don't emphasize education is to surround them with students who come from families that do emphasize education. I was the product of one of these experiments. The school district I lived in was the result of a redistricting to pull in us white students into a large neighboring nonwhite school. I can guarantee I didn't improve the educational outcomes for any of my classmates. And all I received from it was random beatings, violent attacks against me, and a subpar education. I did learn something though... Once out, I studied my ass off and work as hard as possible so that neither I nor my children will live through such an experiment again.

w1ntermute 14y ago
> The school district I lived in was the result of a redistricting to pull in us white students into a large neighboring nonwhite school. Sounds like this was done the wrong way around. What percentage of the students at your school were white? You got your ass beat because you were in the minority, and you were in their school. The best way to change behavior is to intimidate the students through intense peer pressure. If the minority students are going to a school where they are the minority (and properly integrated into the student body), the results will be very different from what you experienced.
- gritzko 14y ago
  Normal people feel uncomfortable betting their children to prove somebody's else theories...
- Matti 14y ago
  "In perhaps the biggest surprise, Armor's studies found that black elementary students who go to magnet schools (which have the highest percentages of whites) score no better on standardized tests than do blacks who go to all-black nonmagnet schools.(97) In short, Armor found that, contrary to the notion on which the whole desegregation plan was founded--that going to school with middle-class whites would increase blacks' achievement--the Kansas City experiment showed that "integration has no effect."(98)" http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-298.html http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-298.html
  - w1ntermute 14y ago
    First of all, one person's opinion does not make a truth. Second, and more importantly, many of these desegregation programs do not achieve true integration. Sure the black students are in the same school as the white students, but they're not in the same classrooms as the white students who are doing well in their studies. This is exactly what I experienced. You also have to ask questions like "Are these students receiving extra help to make up for what they aren't getting at home? Do they feel isolated because they're the only poor black student in the class, or do they feel motivated to find a way to fit in with the high-achieving white students?" That is the difference between desegregation and integration.
andrewvc 14y ago
Yeah, I'm in a similar camp. I'm white, and a product of the LAUSD (Los Angeles) magnet program, which attempted to integrate schools well. Problem is, you're mostly integrating white kids with the minority kids who have parents motivated enough to put them in the magnet program. My schools had both magnet and non magnet kids in them. What this wound up accomplishing was pretty obvious, there was segregation between the two populations. Walking out at lunch one could see the school was divided by a stark line, a line that was about 70% white where the magnet kids hung out, and mixed elsewhere. It probably helped some people from minorities in the magnet, but I'm sure the dividing line just reinforced race and class barriers in the minds of those on both sides.

yummyfajitas 14y ago

This idea also brings up a moral question - how do you justify forcing children of the rich to suffer in order to counteract the bad parenting habits of the poor?

w1ntermute 14y ago
The same way you justify progressive taxation, I suppose. Moreover, the government already does many (other) blatantly immoral things in the name of the (expected) results. But I am less concerned with the morality of it and more concerned with the practicality. If the children of the rich do start suffering, they will simply pull their children out of the public schools, putting you back at square one.
theorique 14y ago
It's not justifiable, but more than that, it's not even tenable. Rich "enough" parents (for some value of enough) will invest to send their kids to boarding school in London or Zurich rather than let them be the "beneficiaries" of a social engineering experiment.
Daniel_Newby 14y ago
The poor are poor because they have an average IQ in the 80s, barely above mental retardation. Their children are the same way because it is genetic. The school busing amd integration programs are about political subjugation of the high class, not assistance to the lower class.
- eropple 14y ago
  Demonstrably untrue and profoundly disturbed.
  - Daniel_Newby 14y ago
    Demonstrate it then.
    - 14y ago

MaysonL 14y ago

What I'm really postulating that the only way to improve the educational outcomes of students that come from families who don't emphasize education is to surround them with students who come from families that do emphasize education. The other way is to turn the family that doesn't emphasize education into one that does. Example: Harlem Children's Zone. http://www.hcz.org/ http://www.hcz.org/

mc32 14y ago

>What I'm really postulating that the only way to improve the educational outcomes of students that come from families who don't emphasize education is to surround them with students who come from families that do emphasize education. I think this works to some degree, but could depend on ratio. One can't ship underperformers into PaloAlto High or Cupertino and overwhelm the student body --it's not as if the influence is one-way. >Yes, this is certainly possible, and is the most common argument utilized by the rich parents when faced with charges of racism towards poor blacks and Latinos. I think looking at homogenous societies (or even states) and looking at achievers vs performers attitudes in those societies. How do parents there deal with these issues? If this argument is used, and those societies are homogenous, then it can't be racist but classist (or even pedagogical).