10 ms·

I am (still) not a proponent for AI, however I hope AI might do to programming what the camera did to painting, and I hope that will be a good thing. What we u

by trashb 26d ago

I am (still) not a proponent for AI, however I hope AI might do to programming what the camera did to painting, and I hope that will be a good thing. What we understand as painting today is very different then what painting meant pre-camera. Now it is mostly a leisure activity and creative outlet. Where back in the day it was a serious occupation for capturing reality, and therefore creativity was taking second stage. I hope that coding will go that way and even though I might lose my current occupation. I feel like that might be what is needed to get out of the stagnation of current day software development (compared to early computer history). Take the money out of coding, bring the creativity in, take out the investors and keep the enthusiasts. I think that might be good for the activity that we call programming. Also "software engineering" involves vastly more then programming or coding, so I doubt software engineering will disappear.

ModernMech 26d ago
Yes, Silicon Valley became Wall Street and that basically ruined it completely. Soon as the term brogrammer was coined it was over.
KurSix 26d ago
If software becomes dramatically cheaper to produce, that may just give investors even more software to invest in
- enos_feedler 26d ago
  That is the comforting idea that allows people to believe in the status quo. It is a possibility but not the likely outcome in my opinion.
tonyedgecombe 26d ago
I think that is quite likely but it is going to be a painful transition. Especially for the people who were only attracted to the profession for the money.
- trashb 26d ago
  Sure but I assume they can find money in other things also and will probably be attracted to that just as much. For example prompt crafting may be their new home.
yard2010 26d ago
Half assed fun fact: there was this painter I can't recall his name, the one that painted that girl with the head scurf. He might have used camera obscura and traced the picture. To me it feels like our times. There's a new tool that can be used along with the tools we have been using for decades to create something magical.
- trashb 26d ago
  you are referring to Johannes Vermeer? Indeed that is one theory. He was also a master at his craft so this is exactly the transition period where the master of the old method is able to adapt a technology in a way later pupils likely can not, due to the experience without the tool at hand. Sounds a lot like the AI transition we are making now.
luxcem 26d ago
Nobody will go to an exhibition or a museum to stare at code like we do with paintings. The public for creative programming is really thin.
- JetSetIlly 26d ago
  Maybe not, but the process of creation and the final result will be of interest to other creators. Like any hobby it might seem strange to outsiders but it will be fascinating to those who are part of the scene.
- alanbernstein 26d ago
  No, because it doesn't make sense to experience it in that context. I think of it as more like poetry . For example: https://www.norvig.com/spell-correct.html https://www.norvig.com/spell-correct.html
- aleph_minus_one 26d ago
  > Nobody will go to an exhibition or a museum to stare at code like we do with paintings. Because most code is a stinking pile of shit. But at least I can easily imagine a world where people indeed do this. :-) Indeed yesterday I drew some pictures (on my computer) that visualize what actually happens in some rather mathematical algorithms.
- vatsachak 26d ago
  I read code for fun in my free time
- pksebben 26d ago
  one doesn't go to a gallery to watch the painting get made. Creative coding can still be enjoyed by appreciating the output. The immediate rebuttal to that might be that "AI could just do it" but that's not entirely true - the sort of art that you (typically) see in a gallery isn't "an accurate representation of the world as viewed" just as a lot of "code as art" isn't "a problem solved with code". The camera captures (mostly accurate) images, and AI is usually writing "code that does a thing". The expressiveness (can) come from a place that's deeply human, and can yield a product that is tangibly diifferent from what an efficient coding process would normally produce. A few of us played a game when I was in batch at the Recurse Center - we called it Monstrosity. The game was to build a string in the absolutely least efficient way possible - using the largest stack, the most network hops, the most obfuscatory and difficult methods to create a character (bit-shifting algorithms to make ASCII, anyone?). It was beautiful, and it was the kind of thing that AI would never think to do (at least, not without significant cajoling and even then you'd be missing the point).
bluebarbet 26d ago
Excellent analogy which I'm annoyed I didn't think of myself.
- 123816 26d ago
  That is a sharp observation! It is the true North Star of analogies!
  - hackable_sand 26d ago
    I've literally never heard of a better analogy for any other idea ever. It's absolutely amazing.
    - bluebarbet 25d ago
      I'm glad we all agree (i.e. you, me, and the bot you're replying to).
      - hackable_sand 25d ago
        I would make some miniscule edits though. Replace the "photography" in this instance with a clay pigeon and the "painting" with a real pigeon.
ashqg17 26d ago
[flagged]
_m_p 26d ago
> back in the day it was a serious occupation for capturing reality, and therefore creativity was taking second stage Source please.
- cautiouscat 26d ago
  Just look at all the painted portraits? Or portrait painting in general?
  - _m_p 26d ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mimesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mimesis
- trashb 26d ago
  The invention of photography had a major impact on painting. In the decades after the first photograph was produced in 1829, photographic processes improved and became more widely practiced, depriving painting of much of its historic purpose to provide an accurate record of the observable world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Painting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Painting Additionally there is a huge historical precedence for capturing images, basically for money either through being a painter in someone's service, patronage or working for commission. These painters would work and follow the directions of the commissioner, even though they may not have agreed with it. This is one of the reasons for the English "rectangular livestock" paintings. https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/rectangular-cows/ https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/rectangular-cows/ In dutch there is a word "broodschilder" (literally bread painter) witch means painter who paints for a living (commercial) / hack painter. In history these painters often where seen as doing a craft in the same way a carpenter works with requirements and requests for the picture, make it happen. Often the painters where not even not able to sign their work (for example religious commission). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Court_painter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Court_painter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_patronage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_patronage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commission_(art) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commission_(art)
  - deleted 25d ago
gfdhjd3 26d ago
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by trashb 26d ago

ModernMech 26d ago

Yes, Silicon Valley became Wall Street and that basically ruined it completely. Soon as the term brogrammer was coined it was over.

KurSix 26d ago

If software becomes dramatically cheaper to produce, that may just give investors even more software to invest in

enos_feedler 26d ago
That is the comforting idea that allows people to believe in the status quo. It is a possibility but not the likely outcome in my opinion.

tonyedgecombe 26d ago

I think that is quite likely but it is going to be a painful transition. Especially for the people who were only attracted to the profession for the money.

trashb 26d ago
Sure but I assume they can find money in other things also and will probably be attracted to that just as much. For example prompt crafting may be their new home.

yard2010 26d ago

Half assed fun fact: there was this painter I can't recall his name, the one that painted that girl with the head scurf. He might have used camera obscura and traced the picture. To me it feels like our times. There's a new tool that can be used along with the tools we have been using for decades to create something magical.

trashb 26d ago
you are referring to Johannes Vermeer? Indeed that is one theory. He was also a master at his craft so this is exactly the transition period where the master of the old method is able to adapt a technology in a way later pupils likely can not, due to the experience without the tool at hand. Sounds a lot like the AI transition we are making now.

luxcem 26d ago

Nobody will go to an exhibition or a museum to stare at code like we do with paintings. The public for creative programming is really thin.

JetSetIlly 26d ago
Maybe not, but the process of creation and the final result will be of interest to other creators. Like any hobby it might seem strange to outsiders but it will be fascinating to those who are part of the scene.
alanbernstein 26d ago
No, because it doesn't make sense to experience it in that context. I think of it as more like poetry . For example: https://www.norvig.com/spell-correct.html https://www.norvig.com/spell-correct.html
aleph_minus_one 26d ago
> Nobody will go to an exhibition or a museum to stare at code like we do with paintings. Because most code is a stinking pile of shit. But at least I can easily imagine a world where people indeed do this. :-) Indeed yesterday I drew some pictures (on my computer) that visualize what actually happens in some rather mathematical algorithms.
vatsachak 26d ago
I read code for fun in my free time
pksebben 26d ago
one doesn't go to a gallery to watch the painting get made. Creative coding can still be enjoyed by appreciating the output. The immediate rebuttal to that might be that "AI could just do it" but that's not entirely true - the sort of art that you (typically) see in a gallery isn't "an accurate representation of the world as viewed" just as a lot of "code as art" isn't "a problem solved with code". The camera captures (mostly accurate) images, and AI is usually writing "code that does a thing". The expressiveness (can) come from a place that's deeply human, and can yield a product that is tangibly diifferent from what an efficient coding process would normally produce. A few of us played a game when I was in batch at the Recurse Center - we called it Monstrosity. The game was to build a string in the absolutely least efficient way possible - using the largest stack, the most network hops, the most obfuscatory and difficult methods to create a character (bit-shifting algorithms to make ASCII, anyone?). It was beautiful, and it was the kind of thing that AI would never think to do (at least, not without significant cajoling and even then you'd be missing the point).

bluebarbet 26d ago

Excellent analogy which I'm annoyed I didn't think of myself.

123816 26d ago
That is a sharp observation! It is the true North Star of analogies!
- hackable_sand 26d ago
  I've literally never heard of a better analogy for any other idea ever. It's absolutely amazing.
  - bluebarbet 25d ago
    I'm glad we all agree (i.e. you, me, and the bot you're replying to).
    - hackable_sand 25d ago
      I would make some miniscule edits though. Replace the "photography" in this instance with a clay pigeon and the "painting" with a real pigeon.

ashqg17 26d ago

[flagged]

_m_p 26d ago

> back in the day it was a serious occupation for capturing reality, and therefore creativity was taking second stage Source please.

cautiouscat 26d ago
Just look at all the painted portraits? Or portrait painting in general?
- _m_p 26d ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mimesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mimesis
trashb 26d ago
The invention of photography had a major impact on painting. In the decades after the first photograph was produced in 1829, photographic processes improved and became more widely practiced, depriving painting of much of its historic purpose to provide an accurate record of the observable world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Painting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Painting Additionally there is a huge historical precedence for capturing images, basically for money either through being a painter in someone's service, patronage or working for commission. These painters would work and follow the directions of the commissioner, even though they may not have agreed with it. This is one of the reasons for the English "rectangular livestock" paintings. https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/rectangular-cows/ https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/rectangular-cows/ In dutch there is a word "broodschilder" (literally bread painter) witch means painter who paints for a living (commercial) / hack painter. In history these painters often where seen as doing a craft in the same way a carpenter works with requirements and requests for the picture, make it happen. Often the painters where not even not able to sign their work (for example religious commission). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Court_painter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Court_painter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_patronage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_patronage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commission_(art) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commission_(art)
- deleted 25d ago

gfdhjd3 26d ago

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