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I like the theory of the IA enough that I have a reoccurring donation, but I've thought a few times about e-mailing them to cancel (they have to halt your month

by zetanor 26d ago

I like the theory of the IA enough that I have a reoccurring donation, but I've thought a few times about e-mailing them to cancel (they have to halt your monthly donation charges manually). There's plenty of things I can overlook, like having to compete with scrapers to get a single page to load, or a myriad of longstanding technical issues (my favorite being that the collection upload system silently and irrevocably leaks your e-mail address: https://archive.org/post/240444/help-to-hide-email https://archive.org/post/240444/help-to-hide-email (2009)). What's a lot harder to overlook is that the IA brazenly hosts warez on clearnet and pulls off stunts like the COVID "emergency library". I'm all for ending copyright, but does any of that really need to be linked with the Wayback Machine? Huge chunks of the Web have been displaced or snuffed by social media and gen AI, making Wayback a unique(ly valuable) source of information and history. It's not my call, but it seems strange to risk it as a motte for the bailey of copyright abolition activism. What happens when some stick-up-the-ass company—whose stuff is probably in hundreds of different collections—decides it really wants a payday?

frenchtoast8 25d ago
How much did IA spend on legal fees, employee time, etc in their defense of the COVID emergency library that most people thought was a lost cause? I need to know where my donation dollars are going.
- addy34 25d ago
  Tax filings are available here: https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/943242767 https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/943... Rev. Costs(all) Legal ----------------------------- 2019 37 37 0.2 2020 22 20 0.4 2021 30 25 2.0 2022 31 26 1.8 2023 24 33 1.0 2024 27 24 2.2 USD millions. Legal is non-employee costs.
  - nijave 24d ago
    Are there on staff lawyers hiding in payroll or do they contract everything?
spenczar5 25d ago
> What happens when some stick-up-the-ass company—whose stuff is probably in hundreds of different collections—decides it really wants a payday? It's happened: - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hachette_v._Internet_Archive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hachette_v._Internet_Archive - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Music_Group_v._Internet_Archive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Music_Group_v._Inter...
bee_rider 25d ago
Have they pulled many other “stunts” like the COVID library? It was a pretty crazy time, I think we shouldn’t judge things done then too harshly.
- wolvoleo 25d ago
  I don't think they have. I also hated that stunt. It undermined their mission, damaged all their goodwill and caused legal hassle. And all the while all these books were readily available to anyone who wanted them via Anna's etc. They should have stayed on the right side of that line.
  - deleted 24d ago
    [deleted]
- kwarcode 25d ago
  former Tory minister spotted
- zetanor 25d ago
  The COVID library wasn't even the first time they had book lending on the Archive. I remember at least a couple of different prior borrowing mechanisms. But besides books, JS/WASM emulators were added a long time ago to run game console ROMs directly in the browser on any collection that happens to contain them. There's probably other examples, but nothing else comes to mind right now.
- mekarpeles 21d ago
  COVID was a particularly treacherous period for a lot of humans. Replying as myself, not my employer. I’m not offering an opinion about the program, as I was not directly involved; I’m only noting circumstances that I think are often under-considered or misrepresented. 1. The state of access. Tens of thousands of public schools and libraries in the United States and across the globe were suddenly mandated to shut their doors, leaving many students, parents, and teachers to fend for themselves, to learn from home, and unequipped with access to the physical resources many needed. Meanwhile, thousands of public libraries across the United States who had these resources were forced to closed their doors, meaning tens of millions of books the public had paid for became unavailable. Many of these public good organizations appealed for some way to solve the unique access challenges created by these unprecedented circumstances, which connects to point number 2. 2. Who was involved. The details regarding how a decision is reached, and whether its made independently or unilaterally or with input and comment, are relevant when forming an opinion. In my experience, many people opine on this topic before researching this point. In 2020, more than 100 public institutions and libraries who were affected by COVID, joined in endorsing some temporary way to offer students, parents, and educators relief by connecting them with resources they had lost access to: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vkl3RX4CzpRTQsoG1tsdHC0foYiU7A8U_Vt1UyVboP8/edit?tab=t.0 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vkl3RX4CzpRTQsoG1tsdHC0f...
mitxela 25d ago
What's wrong with hosting warez exactly? Or the COVID emergency library? Do you think they're actually bad things to do, or are you just worried about the legal risk? If the latter, you should keep donating until you find someone who's doing the same thing with less risk.
- Aurornis 25d ago
  They’re legally indefensible and are an existential threat to the entire organization. The reason many of us donate is for the internet archiving part of the business. When an organization starts taking donations and doing other things with them, including things that actively threaten the existence of the thing you were trying to support, it’s reasonable to stop donating.
  - mitxela 25d ago
    Will stopping donating result in more or less archiving?
    - coryrc 25d ago
      More, if it causes the organization to change course and avoid being sued into oblivion.
    - Aurornis 25d ago
      When a donation-dependent organization starts losing people over its mission, the board takes notice and adjusts course. Unless they're so far gone that they don't care about taking down the organization to pursue activist side quests, in which case donations don't matter.
deleted 25d ago
[deleted]
throwaway2037 25d ago
> I'm all for ending copyright I don't understand this sadly, common sentiment on HN. How will authors and artists that produce copyrightable artefacts earn income via royalties without strong copyright laws? Are there any highly developed nations that have abandoned copyright? Or any that have weak/non-existent copyright laws and thriving arts and letters? I doubt it.
- kwarcode 24d ago
  If violence is the only way to profit from your art, it's not worth it for society.
- meeq 24d ago
  Found out yesterday that Switzerland has extremely lax laws about copyright. You are actually permitted to pirate movies and shows all you want, as long as you don't share the copyrighted media outright. The Swiss Federal Institute of Intellectual Property explicitly says: downloading or streaming works for private use is permitted even when the source is illegal. https://chatgpt.com/share/6aa03984-14e8-83eb-b557-8f587e701c https://chatgpt.com/share/6aa03984-14e8-83eb-b557-8f587e701c...
- what 24d ago
  They don’t think you should profit off your work at all. They expect everything for free.
  - throwaway2037 24d ago
    What bothers me most is the off-handedness of it all. They pop into the conversation like whack-a-mole a say "end copyright", yet offer no reasonable alternatives. Are we suddenly going to stop paying authors for their artistic works? It is crazy. Copyright laws are fundamental to create thriving creative industries.
mekarpeles 21d ago
I think archiving the world's books is as valuable as websites. Many books represent years of an author's life writing authoritatively on a subject. And there are a staggering number of books (especially before 1980) that are simply disappearing from the public record. As book production goes digital and titles are increasingly sold as digital "leases" that customers and libraries don't own (i.e. kindle, libby, etc), it's becoming more and not less challenging (counter-intuitively) for libraries to archive and preserve books into the future. And that's not a coincidence. And I wouldn't be surprised if we continue to see a steep uptick of similar challenges for archiving the web.

by zetanor 26d ago

frenchtoast8 25d ago

How much did IA spend on legal fees, employee time, etc in their defense of the COVID emergency library that most people thought was a lost cause? I need to know where my donation dollars are going.

addy34 25d ago
Tax filings are available here: https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/943242767 https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/943... Rev. Costs(all) Legal ----------------------------- 2019 37 37 0.2 2020 22 20 0.4 2021 30 25 2.0 2022 31 26 1.8 2023 24 33 1.0 2024 27 24 2.2 USD millions. Legal is non-employee costs.
- nijave 24d ago
  Are there on staff lawyers hiding in payroll or do they contract everything?

spenczar5 25d ago

> What happens when some stick-up-the-ass company—whose stuff is probably in hundreds of different collections—decides it really wants a payday? It's happened: - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hachette_v._Internet_Archive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hachette_v._Internet_Archive - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Music_Group_v._Internet_Archive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Music_Group_v._Inter...

bee_rider 25d ago

Have they pulled many other “stunts” like the COVID library? It was a pretty crazy time, I think we shouldn’t judge things done then too harshly.

wolvoleo 25d ago
I don't think they have. I also hated that stunt. It undermined their mission, damaged all their goodwill and caused legal hassle. And all the while all these books were readily available to anyone who wanted them via Anna's etc. They should have stayed on the right side of that line.
- deleted 24d ago
  [deleted]
kwarcode 25d ago
former Tory minister spotted
zetanor 25d ago
The COVID library wasn't even the first time they had book lending on the Archive. I remember at least a couple of different prior borrowing mechanisms. But besides books, JS/WASM emulators were added a long time ago to run game console ROMs directly in the browser on any collection that happens to contain them. There's probably other examples, but nothing else comes to mind right now.
mekarpeles 21d ago
COVID was a particularly treacherous period for a lot of humans. Replying as myself, not my employer. I’m not offering an opinion about the program, as I was not directly involved; I’m only noting circumstances that I think are often under-considered or misrepresented. 1. The state of access. Tens of thousands of public schools and libraries in the United States and across the globe were suddenly mandated to shut their doors, leaving many students, parents, and teachers to fend for themselves, to learn from home, and unequipped with access to the physical resources many needed. Meanwhile, thousands of public libraries across the United States who had these resources were forced to closed their doors, meaning tens of millions of books the public had paid for became unavailable. Many of these public good organizations appealed for some way to solve the unique access challenges created by these unprecedented circumstances, which connects to point number 2. 2. Who was involved. The details regarding how a decision is reached, and whether its made independently or unilaterally or with input and comment, are relevant when forming an opinion. In my experience, many people opine on this topic before researching this point. In 2020, more than 100 public institutions and libraries who were affected by COVID, joined in endorsing some temporary way to offer students, parents, and educators relief by connecting them with resources they had lost access to: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vkl3RX4CzpRTQsoG1tsdHC0foYiU7A8U_Vt1UyVboP8/edit?tab=t.0 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vkl3RX4CzpRTQsoG1tsdHC0f...

mitxela 25d ago

What's wrong with hosting warez exactly? Or the COVID emergency library? Do you think they're actually bad things to do, or are you just worried about the legal risk? If the latter, you should keep donating until you find someone who's doing the same thing with less risk.

Aurornis 25d ago
They’re legally indefensible and are an existential threat to the entire organization. The reason many of us donate is for the internet archiving part of the business. When an organization starts taking donations and doing other things with them, including things that actively threaten the existence of the thing you were trying to support, it’s reasonable to stop donating.
- mitxela 25d ago
  Will stopping donating result in more or less archiving?
  - coryrc 25d ago
    More, if it causes the organization to change course and avoid being sued into oblivion.
  - Aurornis 25d ago
    When a donation-dependent organization starts losing people over its mission, the board takes notice and adjusts course. Unless they're so far gone that they don't care about taking down the organization to pursue activist side quests, in which case donations don't matter.

deleted 25d ago

[deleted]

throwaway2037 25d ago

> I'm all for ending copyright I don't understand this sadly, common sentiment on HN. How will authors and artists that produce copyrightable artefacts earn income via royalties without strong copyright laws? Are there any highly developed nations that have abandoned copyright? Or any that have weak/non-existent copyright laws and thriving arts and letters? I doubt it.

kwarcode 24d ago
If violence is the only way to profit from your art, it's not worth it for society.
meeq 24d ago
Found out yesterday that Switzerland has extremely lax laws about copyright. You are actually permitted to pirate movies and shows all you want, as long as you don't share the copyrighted media outright. The Swiss Federal Institute of Intellectual Property explicitly says: downloading or streaming works for private use is permitted even when the source is illegal. https://chatgpt.com/share/6aa03984-14e8-83eb-b557-8f587e701c https://chatgpt.com/share/6aa03984-14e8-83eb-b557-8f587e701c...
what 24d ago
They don’t think you should profit off your work at all. They expect everything for free.
- throwaway2037 24d ago
  What bothers me most is the off-handedness of it all. They pop into the conversation like whack-a-mole a say "end copyright", yet offer no reasonable alternatives. Are we suddenly going to stop paying authors for their artistic works? It is crazy. Copyright laws are fundamental to create thriving creative industries.

mekarpeles 21d ago

I think archiving the world's books is as valuable as websites. Many books represent years of an author's life writing authoritatively on a subject. And there are a staggering number of books (especially before 1980) that are simply disappearing from the public record. As book production goes digital and titles are increasingly sold as digital "leases" that customers and libraries don't own (i.e. kindle, libby, etc), it's becoming more and not less challenging (counter-intuitively) for libraries to archive and preserve books into the future. And that's not a coincidence. And I wouldn't be surprised if we continue to see a steep uptick of similar challenges for archiving the web.