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Chinese does the same thing, using prefixes like 西 (western), 番 (foreign), and 洋 (foreign) for introduced items. For tomatoes, interestingly, it has two common
by thrdbndndn 28d ago
Chinese does the same thing, using prefixes like 西 (western), 番 (foreign), and 洋 (foreign) for introduced items.
For tomatoes, interestingly, it has two common names that follow this pattern: 西紅柿, literally translated as "Western Red Persimmon", and 番茄, literally translated as "Foreign Eggplant".
Other produce examples include 番薯 (Foreign Yam) for sweet potato, 西瓜 (Western Melon) for watermelon, 洋蔥 (Foreign Onion) for bulb onion etc.
- dotancohen 28d agoThe recorded English-language etymology for "ketchup" suggests that the word comes from one of the Chinese dialect's word for tomato. Do you have any idea which Chinese word sounds like ketchup?
- taneliv 27d agoNot exactly a Chinese dialect, but Vietnamese calls tomatoes "cà chua": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/c%C3%A0_chua https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/c%C3%A0_chua .
- dotancohen 27d agoAre the Vietnamese and Chinese languages related? Or perhaps one of the two cultures was introduced to that fruit by the other, and thus preserved the name?
- avadodin 27d agoNot related at all in recent history and I have no insight on the etymology links but Vietnamese used to be written in a mix of original Vietnamese Chinese-style characters before they changed to a Latin alphabet with Colonialism and Communism so there was definitely contact.
- dotancohen 27d agoThank you
- deleted 26d ago[deleted]
- shawn_w 26d agoChina ruled Vietnam for a thousand years (111 BC–939 AD) so I'm sure there was some linguistic cross pollination. Though tomatoes come around long after that period...
- fsckboy 27d agopossibly Hokkien 膎汁 (kê-chiap, “fish sauce”) via Malay kecap ~ kicap “any dark clear sauce from soy, fish etc” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketchup#Etymology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketchup#Etymology
- deleted 27d ago[deleted]
- thelibrarian 27d agoMy personal theory based on nothing more than the vibe of the thing is that it comes from the Malay/Indonesian word ‘kecap’ (which is pronounced almost identically to “ketchup”), the word for sweet soy sauce. This is soy sauce that is thickened and sweetened with palm sugar, and I could see European cooks attempting to replicate it based on the vague descriptions given by sailors, and ending up with ketchup.
- suddenlybananas 27d agoIt came from the Malay word, but the Malay word comes from Hokkien.
- thelibrarian 26d agoOh, interesting, I didn’t know that, but it makes sense given the influence of Hokkien cuisine on Malaysia.
- dotancohen 27d agoInteresting, thank you.
- bwv848 27d ago茄ke2 汁zap1, but if I remember it correctly, Dan Jurafsky believes it is from 喼git1 汁zap1, worcestershire sauce https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iYwUh1Hdho https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iYwUh1Hdho
- mytailorisrich 27d agoIn Chinese the use of 西 (western) often really means from the West compared to China so India/Central Asia/Middle East, which can be a little confusing at first if you are used to the word meaning "Western World". For instance, watermelons come from Sudan/Egypt and thus arrived in China from the West long before Europeans visited. Another example is The Journey to the West (Monkey King) novel which is also about travelling to India.