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> So unless you're willing to become a literal terrorist organization and die with a bunch of your friends in an uphill battle (not technically unwinnable, but

by dvt 20d ago

> So unless you're willing to become a literal terrorist organization and die with a bunch of your friends in an uphill battle (not technically unwinnable, but at least lopsided and the casualties will be tremendous), the only option is to cave. Honestly, the internet has made folks so lazy. It's very ironic that the most "revolutionary" act taken recently (January 6) was actually done by the far-right. Yeah: if you believe in something, you need to actually get out of the basement, grab a gun, and storm the Capitol. And if you take it all the way, a lot of people are going to die. That's how revolution works. Unless we're all LARPing? But Americans/Westerners (left, right, center) are way too comfortable for a revolution, so for people that are, or have been, actual dissidents (think Arab Spring, or IRA, or ETA, or whatever), this is all just a big meme.

Barrin92 20d ago
Jan 6, didn't work, not entirely sure why you bring this up as a blueprint for anyone. It was an actual LARP and as Bruno Macaes wrote resembled a bunch of people making it to the end of a videogame, then running around confused in costumes and going for a drink. What did work for them was pouring money into the election system and party apparatus, media, the courts and then taking control over politics
- jfengel 20d ago
  What worked was getting people stirred up to the point that some would turn to violence. Even now a majority of their party believe they were justified. That helped them take control of politics. And so that tactic will surely turn people to violence again. The violence itself may not be effective but the level of outrage is.
- xienze 20d ago
  > Jan 6, didn't work, not entirely sure why you bring this up as a blueprint for anyone. Might want to let the Democrats know that. According to them the government was >this< close to being overthrown. Which is funny, because if anyone truly believes that, we don't stand a chance against pretty much any country on earth.
  - micromacrofoot 19d ago
    bro if 2k people broke into work looking for you, it would probably be something you think about a whole lot
    - TMWNN 19d ago
      > ~~2k~~ 250 unarmed people ~~broke into work~~ mysteriously allowed in are looking for you, while dozens of trained armed police officers surround you, it would probably be something you think about a whole lot FTFY
      - mitxela 19d ago
        What happened to Brian Sicknick?
        TMWNN 19d ago
        Officer Sicknick did not die from being hit by a fire extinguisher because that never happened <https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/brian-sicknick-fire-extinguisher/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/brian-sicknick-fire-exting...>. He died of a stroke which the autopsy found no connection with the riot <https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/apr/19/brian-sicknick-capitol-police-officer-died-two-str/ https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/apr/19/brian-sickn...>. The one person who died violently was one of the rioters, an unarmed woman who was shot by Capitol Police. Four other rioters died of natural causes around the time of the riot.
        kwarcode 19d ago
        > Four other rioters died of natural causes around the time of the riot. At that rate, how many can even be left by now?
        fatbird 19d ago
        An unarmed woman climbing through a smashed window with a capital police officer on the other side, sidearm drawn, warning her not to advance, in the middle of a crowd storming the capitol building while a gallows stood outside, waiting for the crowd to bring out a member of congress or the Vice President. > * U.S. representative Markwayne Mullin [currently head of DHS], a witness to Babbitt's attempted breach, said that Byrd "didn't have a choice" but to shoot, and that his action "saved people's lives".* [0] The shooting was deemed “lawful and within department policy”. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Ashli_Babbitt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Ashli_Babbitt
- mitxela 20d ago
  Jan 6 didn't work, but it could have worked. Many similar events have worked before. Jan 6 was the only time people tried, that was the point.
  - Muromec 19d ago
    I would argue Jan 6 was as larpin as it gets, but I also know how being teargassed feels
- ModernMech 19d ago
  Jan 6 was an attempt to convince the American public that the 2020 election was stolen, and to keep Trump in power. Today, more people believe the 2020 election was stolen than on January 7th, Trump is in power despite causing an insurrection, and all the J6 insurrectionists have been pardoned. They’re even setting up to pay them “restitution” out of your pocket. You can be the judge as to whether it succeeded or victory was deferred, but violence definitely won in the end.
chanakya 20d ago
If everyone is so comfortable, what do we need a revolution for? Wasn't that the goal of civilization? If someone doesn't like civilization, why try to bring it down? There's plenty of places on earth you can go to live without it.
- pjerem 19d ago
  It sounds like you don’t know what it means to have your ancestors fighting to death for freedom and rights, being enslaved in work camps… The fight is to never get to this situation again and to keep the rights people died for you to have. You act like things are binary “comfort” vs “horrible life”. It’s not like Fascism grows slowly and then suddenly you are locked.
  - chanakya 19d ago
    I agree we should all be fighting to keep what we have, which is pretty good. But that sounds like the opposite of a revolution to me.
- ranger_danger 19d ago
  Most people are comfortable, but not everyone. At least, comfortable in the sense that they are not willing to die for their country/people at the moment, and aren't personally affected by most of the bad things their government does. In the US at least, things like high food/gas prices or unemployment/healthcare issues are just one of many other issues, and aren't causing most people so much pain that they are willing to pick up a weapon and give up their lives. Or even peacefully protest. People that had enough money that they weren't paying attention to the price of groceries before Trump, probably still don't care all that much now. I might eat out less, but that's not worth abandoning my family or dying over to me. It takes 3.5% of the population to effect change: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3.5%25_rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3.5%25_rule
  - chanakya 19d ago
    The kind of problems you're describing certainly don't sound like things you should "pick up a weapon and give up your life" for, so this doesn't seem to add an argument in favour of "revolution".
kryogen1c 20d ago
> you need to actually get out of the basement, grab a gun, and storm the Capitol. This is not what happened on J6, and is specifically why it was not an insurrection.
- deleted 20d ago
  [deleted]
- jasonlotito 20d ago
  They were terrorists. Every single participant in J6 was a terrorist and deserves the full fury of the United States of America to treat them as such. They were also attempting to assassinate the VP. 1500+ terrorist and failed assassination attempts. It's a shame we went so light on them. Care bear punishment. Sweetheart deals, and then pardoned by a man that literally, factually, supports terrorism against the USA and supporting the attempted assassination of his VP. Geronimo.
idiotsecant 20d ago
"I broke everything like a child and now everything is worse" is not a revolution. It's being a useful idiot
indymike 19d ago
> the only option is to cave Or sue, or organize and protest, or win the next election. Not every government problem warrants revolution, and not needing to revolt is not a failing of the people. > Americans/Westerners (left, right, center) are way too comfortable for a revolution A better read is that the situation for most Americans and "Westerners" whatever that means, is that things are good enough that the people do not see value in revolution, or they are able to adjust the government's course enough through elections, redress, courts and other political feedback mechanisms.
stymaar 19d ago
> Honestly, the internet has made folks so lazy. Or maybe people realize that revolutions, and the civil war that almost always ensue, are a very high price to pay, for a very uncertain reward. Talking about the Arab spring, look what it lead to: - Egypt and Tunisia are again being lead by a dictator, it's just a younger one. - Libya is destroyed, lacks leadership and conflict could resume any day should Haftar decide he doesn't like the result of the upcoming (but long postponed) elections. - Syria has suffered the worst civil war of the decade and the situation is still very brittle. It looks like Jolani could bring redemption to Syria, but with the Israeli playing around with fire it could also collapse any day. And that's assuming Jolani doesn't turn into a dictator himself: we're not talking about someone with a good track record of honoring his promises (which is a good thing when the promise is made to ISIS or Al Qaeda, but still).
vintermann 19d ago
It depends on what you count as "revolutionary". There have been at least two high-profile politically motivated murders in the US after that.

by dvt 20d ago

Barrin92 20d ago

Jan 6, didn't work, not entirely sure why you bring this up as a blueprint for anyone. It was an actual LARP and as Bruno Macaes wrote resembled a bunch of people making it to the end of a videogame, then running around confused in costumes and going for a drink. What did work for them was pouring money into the election system and party apparatus, media, the courts and then taking control over politics

jfengel 20d ago
What worked was getting people stirred up to the point that some would turn to violence. Even now a majority of their party believe they were justified. That helped them take control of politics. And so that tactic will surely turn people to violence again. The violence itself may not be effective but the level of outrage is.
xienze 20d ago
> Jan 6, didn't work, not entirely sure why you bring this up as a blueprint for anyone. Might want to let the Democrats know that. According to them the government was >this< close to being overthrown. Which is funny, because if anyone truly believes that, we don't stand a chance against pretty much any country on earth.
- micromacrofoot 19d ago
  bro if 2k people broke into work looking for you, it would probably be something you think about a whole lot
  - TMWNN 19d ago
    > ~~2k~~ 250 unarmed people ~~broke into work~~ mysteriously allowed in are looking for you, while dozens of trained armed police officers surround you, it would probably be something you think about a whole lot FTFY
    - mitxela 19d ago
      What happened to Brian Sicknick?
      - TMWNN 19d ago
        Officer Sicknick did not die from being hit by a fire extinguisher because that never happened <https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/brian-sicknick-fire-extinguisher/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/brian-sicknick-fire-exting...>. He died of a stroke which the autopsy found no connection with the riot <https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/apr/19/brian-sicknick-capitol-police-officer-died-two-str/ https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/apr/19/brian-sickn...>. The one person who died violently was one of the rioters, an unarmed woman who was shot by Capitol Police. Four other rioters died of natural causes around the time of the riot.
        kwarcode 19d ago
        > Four other rioters died of natural causes around the time of the riot. At that rate, how many can even be left by now?
        fatbird 19d ago
        An unarmed woman climbing through a smashed window with a capital police officer on the other side, sidearm drawn, warning her not to advance, in the middle of a crowd storming the capitol building while a gallows stood outside, waiting for the crowd to bring out a member of congress or the Vice President. > * U.S. representative Markwayne Mullin [currently head of DHS], a witness to Babbitt's attempted breach, said that Byrd "didn't have a choice" but to shoot, and that his action "saved people's lives".* [0] The shooting was deemed “lawful and within department policy”. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Ashli_Babbitt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Ashli_Babbitt
mitxela 20d ago
Jan 6 didn't work, but it could have worked. Many similar events have worked before. Jan 6 was the only time people tried, that was the point.
- Muromec 19d ago
  I would argue Jan 6 was as larpin as it gets, but I also know how being teargassed feels
ModernMech 19d ago
Jan 6 was an attempt to convince the American public that the 2020 election was stolen, and to keep Trump in power. Today, more people believe the 2020 election was stolen than on January 7th, Trump is in power despite causing an insurrection, and all the J6 insurrectionists have been pardoned. They’re even setting up to pay them “restitution” out of your pocket. You can be the judge as to whether it succeeded or victory was deferred, but violence definitely won in the end.

chanakya 20d ago

If everyone is so comfortable, what do we need a revolution for? Wasn't that the goal of civilization? If someone doesn't like civilization, why try to bring it down? There's plenty of places on earth you can go to live without it.

pjerem 19d ago
It sounds like you don’t know what it means to have your ancestors fighting to death for freedom and rights, being enslaved in work camps… The fight is to never get to this situation again and to keep the rights people died for you to have. You act like things are binary “comfort” vs “horrible life”. It’s not like Fascism grows slowly and then suddenly you are locked.
- chanakya 19d ago
  I agree we should all be fighting to keep what we have, which is pretty good. But that sounds like the opposite of a revolution to me.
ranger_danger 19d ago
Most people are comfortable, but not everyone. At least, comfortable in the sense that they are not willing to die for their country/people at the moment, and aren't personally affected by most of the bad things their government does. In the US at least, things like high food/gas prices or unemployment/healthcare issues are just one of many other issues, and aren't causing most people so much pain that they are willing to pick up a weapon and give up their lives. Or even peacefully protest. People that had enough money that they weren't paying attention to the price of groceries before Trump, probably still don't care all that much now. I might eat out less, but that's not worth abandoning my family or dying over to me. It takes 3.5% of the population to effect change: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3.5%25_rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3.5%25_rule
- chanakya 19d ago
  The kind of problems you're describing certainly don't sound like things you should "pick up a weapon and give up your life" for, so this doesn't seem to add an argument in favour of "revolution".

kryogen1c 20d ago

> you need to actually get out of the basement, grab a gun, and storm the Capitol. This is not what happened on J6, and is specifically why it was not an insurrection.

deleted 20d ago
[deleted]
jasonlotito 20d ago
They were terrorists. Every single participant in J6 was a terrorist and deserves the full fury of the United States of America to treat them as such. They were also attempting to assassinate the VP. 1500+ terrorist and failed assassination attempts. It's a shame we went so light on them. Care bear punishment. Sweetheart deals, and then pardoned by a man that literally, factually, supports terrorism against the USA and supporting the attempted assassination of his VP. Geronimo.

idiotsecant 20d ago

"I broke everything like a child and now everything is worse" is not a revolution. It's being a useful idiot

indymike 19d ago

> the only option is to cave Or sue, or organize and protest, or win the next election. Not every government problem warrants revolution, and not needing to revolt is not a failing of the people. > Americans/Westerners (left, right, center) are way too comfortable for a revolution A better read is that the situation for most Americans and "Westerners" whatever that means, is that things are good enough that the people do not see value in revolution, or they are able to adjust the government's course enough through elections, redress, courts and other political feedback mechanisms.

stymaar 19d ago

> Honestly, the internet has made folks so lazy. Or maybe people realize that revolutions, and the civil war that almost always ensue, are a very high price to pay, for a very uncertain reward. Talking about the Arab spring, look what it lead to: - Egypt and Tunisia are again being lead by a dictator, it's just a younger one. - Libya is destroyed, lacks leadership and conflict could resume any day should Haftar decide he doesn't like the result of the upcoming (but long postponed) elections. - Syria has suffered the worst civil war of the decade and the situation is still very brittle. It looks like Jolani could bring redemption to Syria, but with the Israeli playing around with fire it could also collapse any day. And that's assuming Jolani doesn't turn into a dictator himself: we're not talking about someone with a good track record of honoring his promises (which is a good thing when the promise is made to ISIS or Al Qaeda, but still).

vintermann 19d ago

It depends on what you count as "revolutionary". There have been at least two high-profile politically motivated murders in the US after that.