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Ever been mugged? I said this topic was a wedge, you are clearly someone who already doesn't have to deal with crime (as I said, privileged), and are projecting

Ever been mugged? I said this topic was a wedge, you are clearly someone who already doesn't have to deal with crime (as I said, privileged), and are projecting your own insecurities about it. In real life, good people want criminals stopped at all costs, especially when it inevitably happens to them. I'd love for police to catch the bike thief, we all hate bad policing, but being unconditionally anti-police is a great way to get normal people to disagree with your politics, and we get people like trump.

cogman10 20d ago
> Ever been mugged? Mugged, no. But I've certainly had someone try and pickpocket me. > you are clearly someone who already doesn't have to deal with crime Not in my day to day. In fact, most people don't. I've certainly known people who have been mugged and the thing they've said is universal "The police didn't do jack shit". > and are projecting your own insecurities about it. That's an uncharitable reading of my comment. > In real life, good people want criminals stopped at all costs, especially when it inevitably happens to them. In real life, police don't stop crimes. They don't stop muggings. That's not the job of cops. As I stated and you don't really want to contend with, the role of cops is catching the people that mug after the muggings happen. Unless you want to literally blanket the streets with cops, they will never have enough presence to stop a mugging because, spoiler, muggers don't tend to be blind and they don't tend to mug when cops are around. Also here's that "good and evil" stuff again. No, good people don't have universal beliefs, you are using your own standards as "good" and classifying anyone who disagrees with you as evil. Life isn't black and white. I gave some pretty clear examples of that already (which you didn't respond to). > but being unconditionally anti-police is a great way to get normal people to disagree with your politics, and we get people like trump. Where, anywhere, have I stated that I'm anti-police? You are strawmanning me. Police are a necessity that should exist. But, unlike you, I realize they aren't superheroes flying in to stop crime. The state has to have enforcement of it's laws and something like cops will always exist. The question is, how much should we fund them and how much accountability should we expect. My standard is that cops who flagrantly abuse their authority (such as the cops in this article) should lose all ability to be cops. They are done, no more career. Do you disagree with that? Unless you are making the argument that it's impossible for cops to not power trip, then you should be able to clearly see that I'm not advocating that we abolish the police. Stop trying to play armchair psychologist and actually address my comment in your next response. It's annoying that you decided to put forward so many bad faith and misrepresentations of my argument in just a few sentences.
- repeekad 18d ago
  You probably won't read this, but I agree my response was uncharitable and presumptuous of your perspective. I've just met enough people who want to "abolish the police" who have zero clue what they're talking about, who absolutely fit the narrative I erroneously painted of you. While I don't think police are omniscient superheros stopping crime before it happens, they are often true heros in every sense of the word. They put their lives on the line in very dangerous situations to try and prevent danger to others, and cops are killed in duty very regularly to no fanfare outside the local community. Police are a public good. Without a public police force the wealthy would happily fund their own security, and most already do. There are neighborhoods in San francisco with private security teams who simply bypass the shortcomings of SFPD. I'm not sure I follow why police inherently exist to serve only the interests of the wealthy. I agree with most everything else you said.
  - cogman10 18d ago
    Look, I just don't think your view of cops matches the reality of cops. There's a lot of stats on this, cops are just as likely to die in a car accident as they are to die from being shot (not very). It is a dangerous job, but not one that requires heroic fortitude. I believe the way you view police directly contributes to their lack of accountability. They are just people. Getting training and a badge doesn't transform someone into the hero you expect them to be. There is an endemic of bad cops because they very often get a "these are heroes" treatment by a large percentage of the public. I actually want cops to be the heroes TV portrays them to be. But to do that, you have to weed out the losers and bullies who figured out it's a cushy job that pays pretty well for very little education and oversight. That will involve doing things the police union will certainly protest. For example, a national registry of police misconduct and mandatory background check. To stop the problem of a cop who egregiously violates someone's rights from just moving to the next town over.
  - wredcoll 17d ago
    > Police are a public good. Without a public police force the wealthy would happily fund their own security, and most already do. There are neighborhoods in San francisco with private security teams who simply bypass the shortcomings of SFPD. I'm not sure I follow why police inherently exist to serve only the interests of the wealthy. I agree with most everything else you said. I agree police are a public good that society should maintain. The alternative is just a pile of bad ideas. That being said, we, as in America, do a terrible job of maintaining our police force as a public good. You talk about being "heroic" and "risking their lives", and that's technically true, but only for a very tiny subset, a larger subset is abusing their power and authority, and more crucially, never being held accountable. Preventing all crimes is functionally impossible, although the incidence can be reduced in certain ways, but what we need is the criminals to be prosecuted. And a lot of police who commit crimes are not.

cogman10 20d ago

> Ever been mugged? Mugged, no. But I've certainly had someone try and pickpocket me. > you are clearly someone who already doesn't have to deal with crime Not in my day to day. In fact, most people don't. I've certainly known people who have been mugged and the thing they've said is universal "The police didn't do jack shit". > and are projecting your own insecurities about it. That's an uncharitable reading of my comment. > In real life, good people want criminals stopped at all costs, especially when it inevitably happens to them. In real life, police don't stop crimes. They don't stop muggings. That's not the job of cops. As I stated and you don't really want to contend with, the role of cops is catching the people that mug after the muggings happen. Unless you want to literally blanket the streets with cops, they will never have enough presence to stop a mugging because, spoiler, muggers don't tend to be blind and they don't tend to mug when cops are around. Also here's that "good and evil" stuff again. No, good people don't have universal beliefs, you are using your own standards as "good" and classifying anyone who disagrees with you as evil. Life isn't black and white. I gave some pretty clear examples of that already (which you didn't respond to). > but being unconditionally anti-police is a great way to get normal people to disagree with your politics, and we get people like trump. Where, anywhere, have I stated that I'm anti-police? You are strawmanning me. Police are a necessity that should exist. But, unlike you, I realize they aren't superheroes flying in to stop crime. The state has to have enforcement of it's laws and something like cops will always exist. The question is, how much should we fund them and how much accountability should we expect. My standard is that cops who flagrantly abuse their authority (such as the cops in this article) should lose all ability to be cops. They are done, no more career. Do you disagree with that? Unless you are making the argument that it's impossible for cops to not power trip, then you should be able to clearly see that I'm not advocating that we abolish the police. Stop trying to play armchair psychologist and actually address my comment in your next response. It's annoying that you decided to put forward so many bad faith and misrepresentations of my argument in just a few sentences.

repeekad 18d ago
You probably won't read this, but I agree my response was uncharitable and presumptuous of your perspective. I've just met enough people who want to "abolish the police" who have zero clue what they're talking about, who absolutely fit the narrative I erroneously painted of you. While I don't think police are omniscient superheros stopping crime before it happens, they are often true heros in every sense of the word. They put their lives on the line in very dangerous situations to try and prevent danger to others, and cops are killed in duty very regularly to no fanfare outside the local community. Police are a public good. Without a public police force the wealthy would happily fund their own security, and most already do. There are neighborhoods in San francisco with private security teams who simply bypass the shortcomings of SFPD. I'm not sure I follow why police inherently exist to serve only the interests of the wealthy. I agree with most everything else you said.
- cogman10 18d ago
  Look, I just don't think your view of cops matches the reality of cops. There's a lot of stats on this, cops are just as likely to die in a car accident as they are to die from being shot (not very). It is a dangerous job, but not one that requires heroic fortitude. I believe the way you view police directly contributes to their lack of accountability. They are just people. Getting training and a badge doesn't transform someone into the hero you expect them to be. There is an endemic of bad cops because they very often get a "these are heroes" treatment by a large percentage of the public. I actually want cops to be the heroes TV portrays them to be. But to do that, you have to weed out the losers and bullies who figured out it's a cushy job that pays pretty well for very little education and oversight. That will involve doing things the police union will certainly protest. For example, a national registry of police misconduct and mandatory background check. To stop the problem of a cop who egregiously violates someone's rights from just moving to the next town over.
- wredcoll 17d ago
  > Police are a public good. Without a public police force the wealthy would happily fund their own security, and most already do. There are neighborhoods in San francisco with private security teams who simply bypass the shortcomings of SFPD. I'm not sure I follow why police inherently exist to serve only the interests of the wealthy. I agree with most everything else you said. I agree police are a public good that society should maintain. The alternative is just a pile of bad ideas. That being said, we, as in America, do a terrible job of maintaining our police force as a public good. You talk about being "heroic" and "risking their lives", and that's technically true, but only for a very tiny subset, a larger subset is abusing their power and authority, and more crucially, never being held accountable. Preventing all crimes is functionally impossible, although the incidence can be reduced in certain ways, but what we need is the criminals to be prosecuted. And a lot of police who commit crimes are not.