3 ms·

The trivial example is the rules about selling weapons directly, so as a very simple example of this you could take: https://www.brusselstimes.com/153970/wallo

by spwa4 1mo ago

The trivial example is the rules about selling weapons directly, so as a very simple example of this you could take: https://www.brusselstimes.com/153970/wallonia-faces-new-challenge-arms-sales-saudi-arabia-yemen-di-rupo-fn-herstal https://www.brusselstimes.com/153970/wallonia-faces-new-chal... But this is the one-component-is-the-weapon, with everything going in one direction version of such a rule. An F35 has 300,000 components from 19 countries, so you can imagine what a maze the agreements for that one are. It's also not just about the weapons and the danger they pose. It's also about jobs. Know-how (both spreading and restricting know-how). And even the traditional "synergy" (you've designed helicopter blah, hence you make radio component so-and-so, so how about you manufacture NATO standard blah radios and antennas) and the occasional monopoly (it's kind of secret but there aren't many companies that can make the obvious alloy needed for the trust vectoring to name one obvious thing) Our side is NATO, and we make weapons that are designed to push the global integrated worldview and human rights ("America and it's allies") that we espouse as an alliance. And this view permeates all weapons. For NATO guns, one, you'll never get ridiculous ammo stores (that would enable you to eliminate a population for example), we all work on these weapons together, design them together, and if you try to use your own ammo, everything will fail. Most NATO weapons are defensive. You aim a NATO weapon at a (small) target, it finds that target and either kills it or it disables itself and falls to the ground, essentially intact. Russian weapons are the total opposite: they're meant to kill and if they can't kill their target, they'll just kill whatever and whoever's nearby. Sometimes up to the point they kill the weapon's operators. They will fire "cheap ammo" and literally come with instructions on how to make it. They are meant to kill on a very large scale, without precision and they are most definitely not safe to use. This philosophical difference applies to everything from machine guns to nuclear weapons.

dinfinity 1mo ago
Your link is about limiting the sales of Belgian weapons on the basis of Belgian legislation.
- spwa4 1mo ago
  A quick Google search will find you plenty of European legislation. And you should look at those laws like the Belgian laws here, like they were a company "Values" document. That is how the EU/Belgium (and other countries) react "by default", but specific treaties explicitly create exceptions to those rules between specific parties. So like this: exporting guns and ammo is certainly not something any country allows their companies to do, but most/all countries make specific exceptions in treaties. This just happens to have the advantage that it makes it extremely easy for politicians to deceive voters about weapons. "Belgian law says it's illegal to export weapons". 100% technically true, and totally misdirects people into believing Belgium doesn't export weapons, which is absolutely false. Meanwhile, Belgium exports ~50 million euros worth of weapons. But Belgium is just an example, it's not like the Netherlands or France or (definitely) UK, or the EU as a whole are different.
  - dinfinity 1mo ago
    You missed the point. The example asked for was this: "I'm not aware of any sale of a US weapons system containing European parts being blocked by any European government." That would be something like "Belgium says the USA can't sell F-35s to Israel because the wings are Belgian-made" similar to how the USA prevents ASML from selling their machines to China.
    - spwa4 1mo ago
      Oh that's what you want. In the clusterfuck with the Turkey involuntary withdrawal from the F35 program half the treaties were renegotiated (you see, can't have any Turk produce weapons unless he's a "genius", that would not be fair. In other news: the Turkish definition of genius is mostly being the son in law of Erdogan [1]) I believe this agreement is part of the restructuring after that cluster... Note that the agreement is both about production and buying. [2] "Finland has required extensive domestic participation, with industrial cooperation valued at a minimum of 30 percent of the contract price of procuring 64 F-35A fighters. Under the agreement, Finnish firms will produce the F-35’s forward fuselage structures, including components intended for export aircraft. The agreement also includes ..." As to how the EU is involved: https://defence-industry-space.ec.europa.eu/eu-defence-industry/european-defence-fund-edf-official-webpage-european-commission_en https://defence-industry-space.ec.europa.eu/eu-defence-indus... (ie. that's where you go to ask for loans to start a factory for making F35 components, they have a page listing the deals ... somewhere). Note that this is one of the EU institutions that isn't in the budget (well, the loans aren't). They're not spending tax money to make those loans, they're printing money to make those loans. So the Finnish government is making this deal, including details on export (and this is obviously weapons exports). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sel%C3%A7uk_Bayraktar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sel%C3%A7uk_Bayraktar [2] https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/finland-leading-manufacturer-F35 https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/finland-leading-ma...

by spwa4 1mo ago

dinfinity 1mo ago

Your link is about limiting the sales of Belgian weapons on the basis of Belgian legislation.

spwa4 1mo ago
A quick Google search will find you plenty of European legislation. And you should look at those laws like the Belgian laws here, like they were a company "Values" document. That is how the EU/Belgium (and other countries) react "by default", but specific treaties explicitly create exceptions to those rules between specific parties. So like this: exporting guns and ammo is certainly not something any country allows their companies to do, but most/all countries make specific exceptions in treaties. This just happens to have the advantage that it makes it extremely easy for politicians to deceive voters about weapons. "Belgian law says it's illegal to export weapons". 100% technically true, and totally misdirects people into believing Belgium doesn't export weapons, which is absolutely false. Meanwhile, Belgium exports ~50 million euros worth of weapons. But Belgium is just an example, it's not like the Netherlands or France or (definitely) UK, or the EU as a whole are different.
- dinfinity 1mo ago
  You missed the point. The example asked for was this: "I'm not aware of any sale of a US weapons system containing European parts being blocked by any European government." That would be something like "Belgium says the USA can't sell F-35s to Israel because the wings are Belgian-made" similar to how the USA prevents ASML from selling their machines to China.
  - spwa4 1mo ago
    Oh that's what you want. In the clusterfuck with the Turkey involuntary withdrawal from the F35 program half the treaties were renegotiated (you see, can't have any Turk produce weapons unless he's a "genius", that would not be fair. In other news: the Turkish definition of genius is mostly being the son in law of Erdogan [1]) I believe this agreement is part of the restructuring after that cluster... Note that the agreement is both about production and buying. [2] "Finland has required extensive domestic participation, with industrial cooperation valued at a minimum of 30 percent of the contract price of procuring 64 F-35A fighters. Under the agreement, Finnish firms will produce the F-35’s forward fuselage structures, including components intended for export aircraft. The agreement also includes ..." As to how the EU is involved: https://defence-industry-space.ec.europa.eu/eu-defence-industry/european-defence-fund-edf-official-webpage-european-commission_en https://defence-industry-space.ec.europa.eu/eu-defence-indus... (ie. that's where you go to ask for loans to start a factory for making F35 components, they have a page listing the deals ... somewhere). Note that this is one of the EU institutions that isn't in the budget (well, the loans aren't). They're not spending tax money to make those loans, they're printing money to make those loans. So the Finnish government is making this deal, including details on export (and this is obviously weapons exports). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sel%C3%A7uk_Bayraktar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sel%C3%A7uk_Bayraktar [2] https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/finland-leading-manufacturer-F35 https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/finland-leading-ma...