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I think music is a good "test" for logically thinking people because it requires you to put away your logical brain and just accept that music sounds good becau

by Crabber 29d ago

I think music is a good "test" for logically thinking people because it requires you to put away your logical brain and just accept that music sounds good because "it just does" and music theory is the way it is because "it just is". I don't think you can get good at an instrument or enjoy music if you keep trying to force it to make logical sense in your brain all the time. The fact that the author admits straight off the bat that he's never managed to learn an instrument kind of attests to this in my opinion.

odyssey7 29d ago
Fair enough. Models tend to be imperfect, and music theory is definitely no exception to that rule, and we attempt to model music because we care about the underlying phenomenon (music). As someone who enjoys listening to music, creating music, and music theory, I'd characterize the latter as providing a specialized vocabulary; an approach to listening, since words in the vocabulary represent concepts that you can hear; and a toolbox of concepts you can draw from. It's a model, you can use it as much or as little as you like. And there's more than one model, and sometimes the different models overlap more or less, and you can choose any of them or none of them and still make and enjoy music. The other thing it provides is a wildly complex logical system with fascinating philosophical connections. Some people enjoy exploring that more than making music with it, and that's also okay. I've certainly gotten a lot of enjoyment out of that. It's made me a better thinker. In math, formulas can be elegant. In music theory, different constructions induce different experiences.
- Crabber 29d ago
  Fair points, I should probably disclose that my comment is perhaps one of those "looking like I'm giving advice to other people but really just giving advice to myself" kind of comments :) I have began learning instruments before and fell into the trap of asking too many "why" questions and then just got lost in music theory that a) didn't make too much logical sense and b) didn't help me actually get better at an instrument in any way. I think it's very unlike programming where you could start with a hello world program and keep asking "why does it work like that" questions and keep getting deeper and deeper and actually end up with a very good understanding of computers by the end of it that actually would make you a better programmer. But when you're learning an instrument I think perhaps at the start it's better to just accept that "chords sound good because they just do" rather than going off down a complete rabbit hole.
  - odyssey7 29d ago
    Yes, I agree, the rabbit hole is real. It has taken many people away from their initial intention of making music. If you're a musician first and foremost, music theory can be a trap. Although, Alice in Wonderland also shows us the intrinsic value of a good rabbit hole. Edit: Also, what you mention about "why" is true. The models attempt to organize observations of conscious experiences into mathematical and logical frameworks, though they cannot ultimately explain the causes for those connections. The causes of the qualia remain mysterious. Musicians tend to be particularly in tune with how their own experiences connect to music, so some are enthralled to explore that connection itself.
    - Crabber 29d ago
      I think the internet makes this worse because I've noticed a lot of music content on youtube is theory related. But I think that's probably because of this bias the internet in general has of "you only see videos about things it's possible to make content about". What I mean by that is it's not possible to make a 10 minute video on "just sit down and play your instrument". But you can make 50 videos on theory. Don't know if this phenomenon has a name, but I've thought about it before. Social media is filled with posts of people buying things. Because it's not really possible to make a video showing off something you decided not to buy. Same thing with music and people constantly buying gear. "I'm using the same guitar I've had for 10 years and decided to just sit down and practice for 2 hours this evening like the 2000 other evenings before" doesn't make good content.
      - odyssey7 29d ago
        All too true. Something along these lines, people who would like to improve their musical abilities sometimes procrastinate by doing music theory instead. It's safe and it's introspective. And it's authoritative---a legitimate and difficult subject---so there's the potential to feel falsely reassured that you're not wasting time. In a sense, it avoids the more difficult act of creation. This seems to be especially more likely for those who would have wanted to write music. I.e., "drink responsibly." Perhaps music theory classes should come with a warning label, like the Mirror of Erised. You can stare into it endlessly and produce nothing.
ur-whale 29d ago
> I don't think you can get good at an instrument or enjoy music if you keep trying to force it to make logical sense in your brain all the time. I wholeheartedly agree with this. But then, please, don't call it "theory". There is strictly nothing theoretical or indeed, logical, about it.
- luqtas 29d ago
  with good strumming and fretting technique, you can play any of the 10 most used chord progressions in a nylon guitar and impress A LOT of people most popular songs on charts today aren't on the edge of what's new... music theory is a rule set and to break the rules you need to know them. there's a big difference in an illiterate and a jazz musician improvising something for 10 min., as well a music from the scratch by someone who understand orchestration and your unknown local rock artist
Pannoniae 29d ago
Being decent at music has definitely made me a worse programmer because I just do many things - software design, structure, names, you name it - on the vibes instead of sticking to the rules to the chagrin of others :D

by Crabber 29d ago

odyssey7 29d ago

Fair enough. Models tend to be imperfect, and music theory is definitely no exception to that rule, and we attempt to model music because we care about the underlying phenomenon (music). As someone who enjoys listening to music, creating music, and music theory, I'd characterize the latter as providing a specialized vocabulary; an approach to listening, since words in the vocabulary represent concepts that you can hear; and a toolbox of concepts you can draw from. It's a model, you can use it as much or as little as you like. And there's more than one model, and sometimes the different models overlap more or less, and you can choose any of them or none of them and still make and enjoy music. The other thing it provides is a wildly complex logical system with fascinating philosophical connections. Some people enjoy exploring that more than making music with it, and that's also okay. I've certainly gotten a lot of enjoyment out of that. It's made me a better thinker. In math, formulas can be elegant. In music theory, different constructions induce different experiences.

Crabber 29d ago
Fair points, I should probably disclose that my comment is perhaps one of those "looking like I'm giving advice to other people but really just giving advice to myself" kind of comments :) I have began learning instruments before and fell into the trap of asking too many "why" questions and then just got lost in music theory that a) didn't make too much logical sense and b) didn't help me actually get better at an instrument in any way. I think it's very unlike programming where you could start with a hello world program and keep asking "why does it work like that" questions and keep getting deeper and deeper and actually end up with a very good understanding of computers by the end of it that actually would make you a better programmer. But when you're learning an instrument I think perhaps at the start it's better to just accept that "chords sound good because they just do" rather than going off down a complete rabbit hole.
- odyssey7 29d ago
  Yes, I agree, the rabbit hole is real. It has taken many people away from their initial intention of making music. If you're a musician first and foremost, music theory can be a trap. Although, Alice in Wonderland also shows us the intrinsic value of a good rabbit hole. Edit: Also, what you mention about "why" is true. The models attempt to organize observations of conscious experiences into mathematical and logical frameworks, though they cannot ultimately explain the causes for those connections. The causes of the qualia remain mysterious. Musicians tend to be particularly in tune with how their own experiences connect to music, so some are enthralled to explore that connection itself.
  - Crabber 29d ago
    I think the internet makes this worse because I've noticed a lot of music content on youtube is theory related. But I think that's probably because of this bias the internet in general has of "you only see videos about things it's possible to make content about". What I mean by that is it's not possible to make a 10 minute video on "just sit down and play your instrument". But you can make 50 videos on theory. Don't know if this phenomenon has a name, but I've thought about it before. Social media is filled with posts of people buying things. Because it's not really possible to make a video showing off something you decided not to buy. Same thing with music and people constantly buying gear. "I'm using the same guitar I've had for 10 years and decided to just sit down and practice for 2 hours this evening like the 2000 other evenings before" doesn't make good content.
    - odyssey7 29d ago
      All too true. Something along these lines, people who would like to improve their musical abilities sometimes procrastinate by doing music theory instead. It's safe and it's introspective. And it's authoritative---a legitimate and difficult subject---so there's the potential to feel falsely reassured that you're not wasting time. In a sense, it avoids the more difficult act of creation. This seems to be especially more likely for those who would have wanted to write music. I.e., "drink responsibly." Perhaps music theory classes should come with a warning label, like the Mirror of Erised. You can stare into it endlessly and produce nothing.

ur-whale 29d ago

> I don't think you can get good at an instrument or enjoy music if you keep trying to force it to make logical sense in your brain all the time. I wholeheartedly agree with this. But then, please, don't call it "theory". There is strictly nothing theoretical or indeed, logical, about it.

luqtas 29d ago
with good strumming and fretting technique, you can play any of the 10 most used chord progressions in a nylon guitar and impress A LOT of people most popular songs on charts today aren't on the edge of what's new... music theory is a rule set and to break the rules you need to know them. there's a big difference in an illiterate and a jazz musician improvising something for 10 min., as well a music from the scratch by someone who understand orchestration and your unknown local rock artist

Pannoniae 29d ago

Being decent at music has definitely made me a worse programmer because I just do many things - software design, structure, names, you name it - on the vibes instead of sticking to the rules to the chagrin of others :D