4 ms·

Verbatim, who owns M-Disc, doesn't even manufacture discs anymore. They just slap their brand on other peoples discs. The discs sold as M-Discs now are actuall

Verbatim, who owns M-Disc, doesn't even manufacture discs anymore. They just slap their brand on other peoples discs. The discs sold as M-Discs now are actually just MABL BD-R's. They used to have a 'stone' data layer. Now they use a titanium metal data layer. MABL discs were always designed to last for about 100 years, and are orders of magnitude cheaper. 100 years is long enough, and 1000 years was always a wild-ass theoretical abstraction. The point is that you'll be dead before your disc is. If the next generation cares and drives are still available they can copy it to a new source. These same discs are sold with a "Guarantee" as archival discs that are tested with heat/stress to last that 100 years, but any MABL disc really should,and they're much cheaper if you just get regular MABL discs. I think Pioneer is one of the big brands making the archival discs, or at least branding them. I last had to import mine from Japan. If you check the disc ID though, you'll see that archival discs are literally the same disc you can by cheaper without that label. Some M-Discs still have a proprietary disc label, but my understanding is that even those just come off the same lines. Some reading: https://www.reddit.com/r/DataHoarder/comments/yu4j1u/psa_verbatim_no_longer_sells_real_m_discs_now/ https://www.reddit.com/r/DataHoarder/comments/yu4j1u/psa_ver... https://blu-raydisc.info/licensee-list/discmanuid-licenseelist.php# https://blu-raydisc.info/licensee-list/discmanuid-licenseeli... (search for verbatim and note the manufacturer column)

em500 1mo ago
Note that almost all tests and marketing claims about M-DISC (most notably the 1000-year claim) where about the DVD versions. The main distinguishing characteristic of DVD M-DISC is that they do not use organic dyes like standard DVD+/-R, which can degrade relatively quickly. This is also why M-DISC DVD is not always compatible with any DVD reader/writer. Verbatim / Millenniata loves to conflate claims about the original DVD M-DISC and the later BD-R M-DISC. But unlike DVD-R, standard BD-R already don't use organic dyes (with the exception of some low grade "LTH" discs). AFAIK there has never been good evidence that the BD-R M-DISCs have any special sauce compared to any other non-M-DISC BD-R. (Strengthened by the fact that there have never been compatibility issues or special equipment requirements to read/write M-DISC BD-R.)
- mixmastamyk 1mo ago
  Would like to hear more about the longevity of recordable blurays.
steveBK123 1mo ago
> 100 years is long enough, and 1000 years was always a wild-ass theoretical abstraction. The software will be an issue before the hardware anyway inevitably
- esafak 1mo ago
  Include the source (don't use proprietary stuff), and keep it simple. That should not be an issue in this age.
  - steveBK123 1mo ago
    I think more & more that hobbyists need to keep air gapped old-OS/hardware machines in the garage to manage this kind of stuff. Otherwise you quickly run into connectivity / driver / application / OS compatibility hassles trying to get even 10-20 year old stuff from our own lifetime experience to run. I'm not sure how we expect our great-grandchildren to figure out how to get data off a disc/drive in 100 years. I can look at a film strip or print from my grandfather or play his records more easily than I can run software from my own childhood.
    - laweijfmvo 1mo ago
      surely AI will just recode the entire system in minutes?
      - steveBK123 1mo ago
        Yes, AI will simply vibe code drivers for devices it can't talk to in order to read formats it can't read More likely it will just hallucinate content that plausibly could be on the disc and display that for the unwitting
        bethekidyouwant 1mo ago
        Why would it not be able to talk to it? Clearly the io pinns can be connected forever…
kolinko 1mo ago
With 100 years you need every other generation to rewrite/refresh them, or the data is lost. For things recorded today, nobody will care about refreshing for 75 heads, and if during 2100-2125 there are some budget constraints/wars/whatnot, the data will rot. With 1000 years, you can just throw stuff into a bunker and all that it will take will be for someone in a period of 2800-3025 to take the time to refresh the library. 200 years should be enough to wait through a mild civ collapse or something. Sure we’re talking about times beyond our lifetimes, but a lot if things we are sorrounded by were planned by people who knew they wouldn’t live to see the outcomes.
ndiddy 1mo ago
A German news site reached out to Verbatim about this and got the response that the discs are still M-Discs and will still last 1,000 years: https://www.heise.de/news/Langzeitarchivierung-Verwirrung-um-die-M-Disc-7349953.html https://www.heise.de/news/Langzeitarchivierung-Verwirrung-um... > Verbatim clarified that these discs were advancements. The technical changes resulted in a different appearance and the ability for higher burning speeds, the changed media-ID was due to an adaptation with regard to other Verbatim products. Verbatim had already shipped the first modified media in early 2022. The data security of the new discs is not inferior to that of the old discs: Data should also last 1000 years, according to the manufacturer. I'm not sure what you mean by "Verbatim just slaps their brand on other people's discs". Verbatim used to be owned by Mitsubishi Chemical Media, and was sold to CMC Magnetics in 2020. The only two manufacturers I see on that page for Verbatim discs are Mitsubishi Chemical Media and CMC Magnetics.
- mapontosevenths 1mo ago
  That's truly a strange article. Even verbatim's own website no longer makes the thousand year claim. Saying instead "several hundred years". However their website also claims that the disc's use "etched" stone-like data layers, which is also demonstrably not true. Their own marketing says titanium in other places (on the spindle insert). I think that Verbatim (or their shambling post-buyout animated corpse) just lies a lot or is filled with confusion about their own product. https://www.verbatim.com/en/m-disc/products/43847-m-disc-bd-r-dl-50gb-6x-limited-archival-10pk https://www.verbatim.com/en/m-disc/products/43847-m-disc-bd-... > I'm not sure what you mean by "Verbatim just slaps their brand on other people's discs". I wasn't aware of the chain of ownership. That said, they literally sell the same disc identifier as both m-disc and non m-disc. I don't think it's just a reused ID either. If you put them next each other they're identical, and they use the same media label. The old disc's were both visually distinct and had a unique ID. The only difference zeems to be packaging. I don't doubt that it's the same quality. They stopped selling the much worse LTH discs and all the disc's are good now. M-disc buyers get what they pay for (if they expect 100 years rather than 1000), it's just that everyone else also gets that for less money.
  - 1mo ago
hn_submit 1mo ago
> Verbatim, who owns M-Disc, doesn't even manufacture discs anymore. They just slap their brand on other peoples discs. Isn't that the case with all Western manufacturers these days? They buy stuff from China and slap their label on it. Management has no affinity with engineering and technology, all they know is marketing.
asdff 1mo ago
Kind of interesting how analog media is still the best archival media. Throw your data on a stone tablet it's going to last 10,000 years.
- SchemaLoad 1mo ago
  I think it's more the size of the data rather than digital vs analog. you could have digital data stored on punch cards or say a large array of dip switches and it would last ages, but the storage density is terrible. Meanwhile disks and ssds store massive amounts of data on a very tiny space but it's prone to corruption over time. Punch cards that are laser cut from metal would probably outlast stone tablets.
- _carbyau_ 1mo ago
  Information density tho'...
- ForHackernews 29d ago
  Analog: https://rosettaproject.org/disk/concept/ https://rosettaproject.org/disk/concept/
- Mr_Minderbinder 29d ago
  There is no fundamental difference between symbols inscribed on a stone tablet with a sharp tool versus symbols etched onto a reflective disc by a laser. In both cases you are recording symbolic information on a physical medium; they both record digital information. The true difference between digital and “analogue” lies in the nature of the representation and interpretation of information, that is whether they are descriptions (symbolic) or analogies. The shape of the groove on a phonograph record is an analogy of a sound wave signal. The pits in a compact disc represent numerals which give a description of the amplitude of a signal at a given point in time.
- mapontosevenths 29d ago
  The older M-Data discs actually claimed to use a stone data layer.
LargoLasskhyfv 1mo ago
I'm wondering about which device I'd use in about 100 years, via which chain of Quantumbolt adapter to Gizmoidics Nineblazeultra to Akashix. Or would I have something in which I'd put the media, and had it directly scanned by advanced beamforming arrays?
neilfrndes 1mo ago
I buy the original Millenniata 'stone' DVDs from eBay[1]. They are only 4.7 gb though, not 25/100gb blue rays that verbatim sells. [1] https://www.ebay.com/itm/261878887064 https://www.ebay.com/itm/261878887064
throw0101a 29d ago
> These same discs are sold with a "Guarantee" as archival discs that are tested with heat/stress to last that 100 years, but any MABL disc really should,and they're much cheaper if you just get regular MABL discs. Is there any kind of 'binning' going on that would make them different? A lot of things are made on the same assembly line, but after QC testing certain batches may be treated differently depending on the results.
protimewaster 29d ago
> Verbatim, who owns M-Disc, doesn't even manufacture discs anymore. They just slap their brand on other peoples discs. They're owned by one of the other disc manufacturers (CMC Magnetics), so I think they're technically putting their name on their own discs. But, "they" is CMC now.

em500 1mo ago

Note that almost all tests and marketing claims about M-DISC (most notably the 1000-year claim) where about the DVD versions. The main distinguishing characteristic of DVD M-DISC is that they do not use organic dyes like standard DVD+/-R, which can degrade relatively quickly. This is also why M-DISC DVD is not always compatible with any DVD reader/writer. Verbatim / Millenniata loves to conflate claims about the original DVD M-DISC and the later BD-R M-DISC. But unlike DVD-R, standard BD-R already don't use organic dyes (with the exception of some low grade "LTH" discs). AFAIK there has never been good evidence that the BD-R M-DISCs have any special sauce compared to any other non-M-DISC BD-R. (Strengthened by the fact that there have never been compatibility issues or special equipment requirements to read/write M-DISC BD-R.)

mixmastamyk 1mo ago
Would like to hear more about the longevity of recordable blurays.

steveBK123 1mo ago

> 100 years is long enough, and 1000 years was always a wild-ass theoretical abstraction. The software will be an issue before the hardware anyway inevitably

esafak 1mo ago
Include the source (don't use proprietary stuff), and keep it simple. That should not be an issue in this age.
- steveBK123 1mo ago
  I think more & more that hobbyists need to keep air gapped old-OS/hardware machines in the garage to manage this kind of stuff. Otherwise you quickly run into connectivity / driver / application / OS compatibility hassles trying to get even 10-20 year old stuff from our own lifetime experience to run. I'm not sure how we expect our great-grandchildren to figure out how to get data off a disc/drive in 100 years. I can look at a film strip or print from my grandfather or play his records more easily than I can run software from my own childhood.
  - laweijfmvo 1mo ago
    surely AI will just recode the entire system in minutes?
    - steveBK123 1mo ago
      Yes, AI will simply vibe code drivers for devices it can't talk to in order to read formats it can't read More likely it will just hallucinate content that plausibly could be on the disc and display that for the unwitting
      - bethekidyouwant 1mo ago
        Why would it not be able to talk to it? Clearly the io pinns can be connected forever…

kolinko 1mo ago

With 100 years you need every other generation to rewrite/refresh them, or the data is lost. For things recorded today, nobody will care about refreshing for 75 heads, and if during 2100-2125 there are some budget constraints/wars/whatnot, the data will rot. With 1000 years, you can just throw stuff into a bunker and all that it will take will be for someone in a period of 2800-3025 to take the time to refresh the library. 200 years should be enough to wait through a mild civ collapse or something. Sure we’re talking about times beyond our lifetimes, but a lot if things we are sorrounded by were planned by people who knew they wouldn’t live to see the outcomes.

ndiddy 1mo ago

A German news site reached out to Verbatim about this and got the response that the discs are still M-Discs and will still last 1,000 years: https://www.heise.de/news/Langzeitarchivierung-Verwirrung-um-die-M-Disc-7349953.html https://www.heise.de/news/Langzeitarchivierung-Verwirrung-um... > Verbatim clarified that these discs were advancements. The technical changes resulted in a different appearance and the ability for higher burning speeds, the changed media-ID was due to an adaptation with regard to other Verbatim products. Verbatim had already shipped the first modified media in early 2022. The data security of the new discs is not inferior to that of the old discs: Data should also last 1000 years, according to the manufacturer. I'm not sure what you mean by "Verbatim just slaps their brand on other people's discs". Verbatim used to be owned by Mitsubishi Chemical Media, and was sold to CMC Magnetics in 2020. The only two manufacturers I see on that page for Verbatim discs are Mitsubishi Chemical Media and CMC Magnetics.

mapontosevenths 1mo ago
That's truly a strange article. Even verbatim's own website no longer makes the thousand year claim. Saying instead "several hundred years". However their website also claims that the disc's use "etched" stone-like data layers, which is also demonstrably not true. Their own marketing says titanium in other places (on the spindle insert). I think that Verbatim (or their shambling post-buyout animated corpse) just lies a lot or is filled with confusion about their own product. https://www.verbatim.com/en/m-disc/products/43847-m-disc-bd-r-dl-50gb-6x-limited-archival-10pk https://www.verbatim.com/en/m-disc/products/43847-m-disc-bd-... > I'm not sure what you mean by "Verbatim just slaps their brand on other people's discs". I wasn't aware of the chain of ownership. That said, they literally sell the same disc identifier as both m-disc and non m-disc. I don't think it's just a reused ID either. If you put them next each other they're identical, and they use the same media label. The old disc's were both visually distinct and had a unique ID. The only difference zeems to be packaging. I don't doubt that it's the same quality. They stopped selling the much worse LTH discs and all the disc's are good now. M-disc buyers get what they pay for (if they expect 100 years rather than 1000), it's just that everyone else also gets that for less money.
- 1mo ago

hn_submit 1mo ago

> Verbatim, who owns M-Disc, doesn't even manufacture discs anymore. They just slap their brand on other peoples discs. Isn't that the case with all Western manufacturers these days? They buy stuff from China and slap their label on it. Management has no affinity with engineering and technology, all they know is marketing.

asdff 1mo ago

Kind of interesting how analog media is still the best archival media. Throw your data on a stone tablet it's going to last 10,000 years.

SchemaLoad 1mo ago
I think it's more the size of the data rather than digital vs analog. you could have digital data stored on punch cards or say a large array of dip switches and it would last ages, but the storage density is terrible. Meanwhile disks and ssds store massive amounts of data on a very tiny space but it's prone to corruption over time. Punch cards that are laser cut from metal would probably outlast stone tablets.
_carbyau_ 1mo ago
Information density tho'...
ForHackernews 29d ago
Analog: https://rosettaproject.org/disk/concept/ https://rosettaproject.org/disk/concept/
Mr_Minderbinder 29d ago
There is no fundamental difference between symbols inscribed on a stone tablet with a sharp tool versus symbols etched onto a reflective disc by a laser. In both cases you are recording symbolic information on a physical medium; they both record digital information. The true difference between digital and “analogue” lies in the nature of the representation and interpretation of information, that is whether they are descriptions (symbolic) or analogies. The shape of the groove on a phonograph record is an analogy of a sound wave signal. The pits in a compact disc represent numerals which give a description of the amplitude of a signal at a given point in time.
mapontosevenths 29d ago
The older M-Data discs actually claimed to use a stone data layer.

LargoLasskhyfv 1mo ago

I'm wondering about which device I'd use in about 100 years, via which chain of Quantumbolt adapter to Gizmoidics Nineblazeultra to Akashix. Or would I have something in which I'd put the media, and had it directly scanned by advanced beamforming arrays?

neilfrndes 1mo ago

I buy the original Millenniata 'stone' DVDs from eBay[1]. They are only 4.7 gb though, not 25/100gb blue rays that verbatim sells. [1] https://www.ebay.com/itm/261878887064 https://www.ebay.com/itm/261878887064

throw0101a 29d ago

> These same discs are sold with a "Guarantee" as archival discs that are tested with heat/stress to last that 100 years, but any MABL disc really should,and they're much cheaper if you just get regular MABL discs. Is there any kind of 'binning' going on that would make them different? A lot of things are made on the same assembly line, but after QC testing certain batches may be treated differently depending on the results.

protimewaster 29d ago

> Verbatim, who owns M-Disc, doesn't even manufacture discs anymore. They just slap their brand on other peoples discs. They're owned by one of the other disc manufacturers (CMC Magnetics), so I think they're technically putting their name on their own discs. But, "they" is CMC now.