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> Here[2] Is the syllabus for ABRSM Grades 1-5 music theory. I've always thought that's mistitled. Better would be Traditional Western Music Notation Theory.

by chrisjj 1mo ago

> Here[2] Is the syllabus for ABRSM Grades 1-5 music theory. I've always thought that's mistitled. Better would be Traditional Western Music Notation Theory. Notice what's absent, e.g. frequency and timbre which are nicely introduced by the current article. Music theory is a lot wider than the ABSRM syllabus. And the current article is a great starting point.

bossyTeacher 1mo ago
Done on purpose. The assumption here is that this theory is the one and only theory.
- chrisjj 1mo ago
  Sad but true.
TheOtherHobbes 1mo ago
That's sound design theory, not music theory. They're not the same thing. Music theory is about chords, scales, rhythm, and - most importantly and elusively - how to fit them together to say something interesting. Entry-level trad Western Theory gives you the concept of a basic grammar as a first introduction, but once you have that you can extend it fairly painlessly to jazz/funk/metal/pop/whatever. Advanced classical grammar - baroque and modal counterpoint, extended harmony, and such - has some useful pointers for modern song-writing, but it's a specialised skill for experts. Movie and game score composers likely know it, but it's a degree-level skill. Sound design theory is a subset of orchestration. The proof is that you can take most music and play it with simple sine wave bloops - no orchestration at all - and it remains completely recognisable. Explaining equal temperament etc sounds clever and it's interesting if you like that kind of thing, but it's a distracting level of nerdery that doesn't help at all with basic song writing.
- oplav 1mo ago
  I agree. As a (hobbyist) musician and a (professional) programmer, I would not classify this web page as “music theory” given its widely accepted definition. At UIUC, we had a class called Electronic Music Synthesis. It’s been over a decade since I took the class, but the first few lectures covered mostly everything in this web page. That content was never presented to us as “music theory”. https://ece.illinois.edu/academics/courses/ece402 https://ece.illinois.edu/academics/courses/ece402
- strenholme 1mo ago
  For people with the mind of a programmer, explaining the mathematical basis of equal temperament and then the major scale (the article doesn’t explain the major scale well, but simply says “it sounds better than a chromatic scale”) allows a programmer to understand not just the how but the why for the basics of western music. For people that just want the how, one would start with “here is a pentatonic scale” followed by “here is a major chord”.
  - simonask 1mo ago
    It's also a really strong example of "missing the forest for the trees". Deriving Western music traditions from first principles does not help you to understand why, what, and how any of it actually works.
    - strenholme 1mo ago
      If we teach theory without first principles, all we have to do is say “C + E + G make up a major triad”; we may go as far as to explain that, in a major key, the I, IV, and V chords are major chords, the ii, iii, and vi chords are minor chords, and the vii chord is a very dissonant diminished chord. However, first principles explain “why” a major chord sounds the way it does, and “why” a minor chord has more tension. Let’s look at the five-limit just intervals: 2/1, 3/2, 4/3, 5/4, and 6/5. 2/1 is a perfect interval; two notes an octave apart sound nearly the same. 3/2 and 4/3 are also perfect intervals, but there’s a little more tension and beating than with 2/1. 5/4 has a little more tension than 4/3, and 6/5 has even more tension. I just explained, using first principles, the octave, perfect fifth, perfect fourth, major third, and minor third. That’s most of the scale right there. Now, let’s make a chord. Experience has shown that three notes is more interesting to the human ear than just two notes. That in mind, we want three distinct notes where the intervals between notes have a minimum of tension. Take the root, take 5/4 of that, then take 3/2 of the root. That’s a major chord. The reason we use 5/4 instead of 4/3 is because the interval between 5/4 and 3/2 is 6/5; the interval between 4/3 and 3/2 is 9/8. Since 9/8 has more tension than 6/5, that gives us a suspended chord, and it’s better to use a major chord with less tension to make a simple chord progression. Now that we have our first chord, we can hear that having a 1-chord song becomes repetitive very quickly to the human ear. We can make the song more dynamic and interesting by giving it three chords: I, IV, and V. Take that chord: 1, 5/4, and 3/2 (a major chord). Move all three notes up 4/3, because 4/3 is a perfect interval with a minimum of tension. That’s our IV chord (F chord in the key of C major) Next, from the root position, instead of moving up the chord 4/3, we instead move it up 3/2. That’s a V (or dominant) chord—a G chord when played in the key of C major. Now, from first principles, namely that the intervals 3/2, 4/3, and 5/4 sound pleasant to the human ear, that 6/5 has more tension, and 9/8 has even more tension (so we avoid suspended chords for now), we have a I IV V chord progression, which is the basis for countless rock and popular songs. If we take all of the individual notes from the I IV V chord progression, that gives us the seven notes of the major scale, after explaining that, once we cross the octave threshold, we can transpose an octave down without affecting the musicality of the notes. We might even explain chord inversions here. So instead of just parroting “I IV V makes a nice simple chord progression”, we now know the underlying physics which make I IV V sound so nice to the human ear, and how to get the major scale from those chords. I prefer understanding both the why and the how. (I would have used two slightly detuned sawtooth waves instead of a sine wave for most of the examples if I were to write an article like the one this discussion links to, explaining this has a more pleasant, piano or violin like sound to it. Maybe even a low pass filter to tame the harmonics. Another option is to run a single sawtooth wave through a Solina style chorus, but explaining two detuned sawtooth waves is easier than trying to explain the Solina chorus effect)
- chrisjj 1mo ago
  > Music theory is about chords, scales, rhythm, and - most importantly and elusively - how to fit them together to say something interesting. That's part of it, but you can make music with none of it. Me, I agree with WP: "Music theory is the study of theoretical frameworks for understanding the practices and possibilities of music." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_theory
  - simonask 1mo ago
    > That's part of it, but you can make music with none of it. Does anybody, though? Would anybody listen to it? Every culture on Earth has music. All of them use chords, scales, and rhythm, in various ways. Definitely not all of them use the Western diatonic system, but that's beside the point.
- PaulDavisThe1st 1mo ago
  I am missing the part where TFA said that the goal was to help with "basic song writing". And what is "distracting level of nerdery" to someone can be the key that helps unlock a deeper level of understanding to someone else. I thought we understood neurodivergence a little better these days. The western theory stuff you describe has almost no relevance at all when considered non-western musical cultures. The contents of TFA, while not strictly comprehensive when considering other musical cultures, is still pretty on point. Even though Carnatic and Hindustani music theoretically uses 22 tones per octave, the most common ones are still drawn from the same set of 12 used in western music, and the most common scales are remarkably similar.
  - bossyTeacher 1mo ago
    > The western theory stuff you describe has almost no relevance at all when considered non-western musical cultures. Say it louder for those at the back. People keep forgetting that western theory was unable to explain why the blues (the American music form by excellence) worked at all. And arguably, a lot of the western music theory is more akin to a codification of existing musical practices in the western world rather than some scientific model. But a lot of music theory fans seem to dogmatically treat it as THE science of ALL music.
    - simonask 1mo ago
      You're confusing some tenses here. At the time when Blues became widely known, "Western music theory" covered Beethoven. That's about it.
teiferer 1mo ago
Most music cultures work well without once thinking about frequency. The closest you get might be pitch. Starting from frequency is a very physics-oriented approach and will give you a hard time understanding why your favorite piece of music is so good.
khazhoux 1mo ago
Similar to me lobbying them to rename it Webster’s Traditional American English Dictionary

by chrisjj 1mo ago

bossyTeacher 1mo ago

Done on purpose. The assumption here is that this theory is the one and only theory.

chrisjj 1mo ago
Sad but true.

TheOtherHobbes 1mo ago

That's sound design theory, not music theory. They're not the same thing. Music theory is about chords, scales, rhythm, and - most importantly and elusively - how to fit them together to say something interesting. Entry-level trad Western Theory gives you the concept of a basic grammar as a first introduction, but once you have that you can extend it fairly painlessly to jazz/funk/metal/pop/whatever. Advanced classical grammar - baroque and modal counterpoint, extended harmony, and such - has some useful pointers for modern song-writing, but it's a specialised skill for experts. Movie and game score composers likely know it, but it's a degree-level skill. Sound design theory is a subset of orchestration. The proof is that you can take most music and play it with simple sine wave bloops - no orchestration at all - and it remains completely recognisable. Explaining equal temperament etc sounds clever and it's interesting if you like that kind of thing, but it's a distracting level of nerdery that doesn't help at all with basic song writing.

oplav 1mo ago
I agree. As a (hobbyist) musician and a (professional) programmer, I would not classify this web page as “music theory” given its widely accepted definition. At UIUC, we had a class called Electronic Music Synthesis. It’s been over a decade since I took the class, but the first few lectures covered mostly everything in this web page. That content was never presented to us as “music theory”. https://ece.illinois.edu/academics/courses/ece402 https://ece.illinois.edu/academics/courses/ece402
strenholme 1mo ago
For people with the mind of a programmer, explaining the mathematical basis of equal temperament and then the major scale (the article doesn’t explain the major scale well, but simply says “it sounds better than a chromatic scale”) allows a programmer to understand not just the how but the why for the basics of western music. For people that just want the how, one would start with “here is a pentatonic scale” followed by “here is a major chord”.
- simonask 1mo ago
  It's also a really strong example of "missing the forest for the trees". Deriving Western music traditions from first principles does not help you to understand why, what, and how any of it actually works.
  - strenholme 1mo ago
    If we teach theory without first principles, all we have to do is say “C + E + G make up a major triad”; we may go as far as to explain that, in a major key, the I, IV, and V chords are major chords, the ii, iii, and vi chords are minor chords, and the vii chord is a very dissonant diminished chord. However, first principles explain “why” a major chord sounds the way it does, and “why” a minor chord has more tension. Let’s look at the five-limit just intervals: 2/1, 3/2, 4/3, 5/4, and 6/5. 2/1 is a perfect interval; two notes an octave apart sound nearly the same. 3/2 and 4/3 are also perfect intervals, but there’s a little more tension and beating than with 2/1. 5/4 has a little more tension than 4/3, and 6/5 has even more tension. I just explained, using first principles, the octave, perfect fifth, perfect fourth, major third, and minor third. That’s most of the scale right there. Now, let’s make a chord. Experience has shown that three notes is more interesting to the human ear than just two notes. That in mind, we want three distinct notes where the intervals between notes have a minimum of tension. Take the root, take 5/4 of that, then take 3/2 of the root. That’s a major chord. The reason we use 5/4 instead of 4/3 is because the interval between 5/4 and 3/2 is 6/5; the interval between 4/3 and 3/2 is 9/8. Since 9/8 has more tension than 6/5, that gives us a suspended chord, and it’s better to use a major chord with less tension to make a simple chord progression. Now that we have our first chord, we can hear that having a 1-chord song becomes repetitive very quickly to the human ear. We can make the song more dynamic and interesting by giving it three chords: I, IV, and V. Take that chord: 1, 5/4, and 3/2 (a major chord). Move all three notes up 4/3, because 4/3 is a perfect interval with a minimum of tension. That’s our IV chord (F chord in the key of C major) Next, from the root position, instead of moving up the chord 4/3, we instead move it up 3/2. That’s a V (or dominant) chord—a G chord when played in the key of C major. Now, from first principles, namely that the intervals 3/2, 4/3, and 5/4 sound pleasant to the human ear, that 6/5 has more tension, and 9/8 has even more tension (so we avoid suspended chords for now), we have a I IV V chord progression, which is the basis for countless rock and popular songs. If we take all of the individual notes from the I IV V chord progression, that gives us the seven notes of the major scale, after explaining that, once we cross the octave threshold, we can transpose an octave down without affecting the musicality of the notes. We might even explain chord inversions here. So instead of just parroting “I IV V makes a nice simple chord progression”, we now know the underlying physics which make I IV V sound so nice to the human ear, and how to get the major scale from those chords. I prefer understanding both the why and the how. (I would have used two slightly detuned sawtooth waves instead of a sine wave for most of the examples if I were to write an article like the one this discussion links to, explaining this has a more pleasant, piano or violin like sound to it. Maybe even a low pass filter to tame the harmonics. Another option is to run a single sawtooth wave through a Solina style chorus, but explaining two detuned sawtooth waves is easier than trying to explain the Solina chorus effect)
chrisjj 1mo ago
> Music theory is about chords, scales, rhythm, and - most importantly and elusively - how to fit them together to say something interesting. That's part of it, but you can make music with none of it. Me, I agree with WP: "Music theory is the study of theoretical frameworks for understanding the practices and possibilities of music." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_theory
- simonask 1mo ago
  > That's part of it, but you can make music with none of it. Does anybody, though? Would anybody listen to it? Every culture on Earth has music. All of them use chords, scales, and rhythm, in various ways. Definitely not all of them use the Western diatonic system, but that's beside the point.
PaulDavisThe1st 1mo ago
I am missing the part where TFA said that the goal was to help with "basic song writing". And what is "distracting level of nerdery" to someone can be the key that helps unlock a deeper level of understanding to someone else. I thought we understood neurodivergence a little better these days. The western theory stuff you describe has almost no relevance at all when considered non-western musical cultures. The contents of TFA, while not strictly comprehensive when considering other musical cultures, is still pretty on point. Even though Carnatic and Hindustani music theoretically uses 22 tones per octave, the most common ones are still drawn from the same set of 12 used in western music, and the most common scales are remarkably similar.
- bossyTeacher 1mo ago
  > The western theory stuff you describe has almost no relevance at all when considered non-western musical cultures. Say it louder for those at the back. People keep forgetting that western theory was unable to explain why the blues (the American music form by excellence) worked at all. And arguably, a lot of the western music theory is more akin to a codification of existing musical practices in the western world rather than some scientific model. But a lot of music theory fans seem to dogmatically treat it as THE science of ALL music.
  - simonask 1mo ago
    You're confusing some tenses here. At the time when Blues became widely known, "Western music theory" covered Beethoven. That's about it.

teiferer 1mo ago

Most music cultures work well without once thinking about frequency. The closest you get might be pitch. Starting from frequency is a very physics-oriented approach and will give you a hard time understanding why your favorite piece of music is so good.

khazhoux 1mo ago

Similar to me lobbying them to rename it Webster’s Traditional American English Dictionary