2 ms·

> it was taught that EU is nothing like the US, as we're all individual countries and everyone wants to remain as such It's written into the treaties that this

> it was taught that EU is nothing like the US, as we're all individual countries and everyone wants to remain as such It's written into the treaties that this will not be so. The goal of the EU is "ever closer union" and the people at the top of it routinely talk about a federal Europe in which the individual states disappear.

dgellow 20d ago
Individual states do not disappear in a more federal Europe. Otherwise that wouldn’t be a confederation… It’s about delegating some authority and decision making to a common entity, but each nation state stays sovereign. I don’t understand how people are confused about that concept, there are lots of federated entities in the world, with various level of delegation to the federal level. And that works well. The distinctions between states aren’t erased, the culture between states isn’t erased.
- mike_hearn 20d ago
  You can't be sovereign and also subservient to another power. That's a contradiction! Texas is not sovereign, for example. The people who call themselves federalists don't actually want a federation. They just use the name because it sounds more acceptable. Read Spinelli's Draft Treaty from 1984 or his Ventotene Manifesto. These documents don't describe the creation of a federation but rather the creation of a unitary state.
embedding-shape 20d ago
> It's written into the treaties that this will not be so. What exact treaty are you talking about, and what does it verbatim say? I've heard this so many times before, yet no one is able to link to concretely what they refer to. No texts I've seen has called for the dissolution of nation states in the EU or any of the other political structures.
- mike_hearn 20d ago
  The goal of ever closer union appears in both the Maastricht Treaty and the Treaty of Rome. https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:11992M/TXT https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL... >RESOLVED to continue the process of creating an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe, in which decisions are taken as closely as possible to the citizen in accordance with the principle of subsidiarity, Now you might say, ah! This text also says that decisions must be taken as closely as possible to the citizens. Yes, the treaties do say that, the EU just doesn't do it. Of course it makes no sense, the claim about subsidiarity is in direct contradiction to the first part of the sentence, you can't be both in an ever-tightening political union and also have decisions made by local governments. In practice the first part is chased and the second part is ignored. EU decisions are taken in Brussels - far away from the average citizen - even about many issues that don't need to be decided there. If you want to understand the real origins of the EU and where it's going, you need to read the Ventotene Manifesto. Written during WW2 by a group of imprisoned Italian communists led by Altiero Spinelli, it calls explicitly for a communist revolution that would unite all of Europe. Spinelli's document can be found here: https://federalists.eu/federalist-library/the-ventotene-manifesto/ https://federalists.eu/federalist-library/the-ventotene-mani... It says things like, "In order to respond to our needs, the European revolution must be socialist" and "By this dictatorship of the revolutionary party a new State will be formed, and around this State new, genuine democracy will grow". It goes on like that in quite some detail. Although the document is insane Spinelli went on to be one of the founding architects of the EU. He is officially credited as a "pioneer of the EU": https://european-union.europa.eu/principles-countries-history/history-eu/eu-pioneers_en https://european-union.europa.eu/principles-countries-histor... and a "founding father of the EU": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_fathers_of_the_European_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_fathers_of_the_Europe... He became one of the first members of the European Commission and was a member of the European Parliament. He was also one of the primary authors of the "Draft Treaty for establishment of the European Union" in 1984 that directly led to the creation of the modern EU itself via the Maastricht Treaty, which imported a lot of its ideas. The Draft Treaty can be found here: https://federalists.eu/federalist-library/draft-treaty-establishing-the-european-union-14-february-1984/ https://federalists.eu/federalist-library/draft-treaty-estab... It not only mentions the goal of ever closer union (with no mention of subsidiarity), but mandates it legally in Article 11, which defines "cooperation" to mean control by member states and "common action" to mean things directly controlled by the EU institutions. It then states in plain English that a topic may be moved from cooperation to common action, but never in reverse. It also states that powers go through this one way transfer to the EU based only on a vote of the EU Parliament, with member state parliaments themselves getting no say in it. So the idea of abolishing national states has always been very visible among the EU's "founding fathers".

dgellow 20d ago

Individual states do not disappear in a more federal Europe. Otherwise that wouldn’t be a confederation… It’s about delegating some authority and decision making to a common entity, but each nation state stays sovereign. I don’t understand how people are confused about that concept, there are lots of federated entities in the world, with various level of delegation to the federal level. And that works well. The distinctions between states aren’t erased, the culture between states isn’t erased.

mike_hearn 20d ago
You can't be sovereign and also subservient to another power. That's a contradiction! Texas is not sovereign, for example. The people who call themselves federalists don't actually want a federation. They just use the name because it sounds more acceptable. Read Spinelli's Draft Treaty from 1984 or his Ventotene Manifesto. These documents don't describe the creation of a federation but rather the creation of a unitary state.

embedding-shape 20d ago

> It's written into the treaties that this will not be so. What exact treaty are you talking about, and what does it verbatim say? I've heard this so many times before, yet no one is able to link to concretely what they refer to. No texts I've seen has called for the dissolution of nation states in the EU or any of the other political structures.

mike_hearn 20d ago
The goal of ever closer union appears in both the Maastricht Treaty and the Treaty of Rome. https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:11992M/TXT https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL... >RESOLVED to continue the process of creating an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe, in which decisions are taken as closely as possible to the citizen in accordance with the principle of subsidiarity, Now you might say, ah! This text also says that decisions must be taken as closely as possible to the citizens. Yes, the treaties do say that, the EU just doesn't do it. Of course it makes no sense, the claim about subsidiarity is in direct contradiction to the first part of the sentence, you can't be both in an ever-tightening political union and also have decisions made by local governments. In practice the first part is chased and the second part is ignored. EU decisions are taken in Brussels - far away from the average citizen - even about many issues that don't need to be decided there. If you want to understand the real origins of the EU and where it's going, you need to read the Ventotene Manifesto. Written during WW2 by a group of imprisoned Italian communists led by Altiero Spinelli, it calls explicitly for a communist revolution that would unite all of Europe. Spinelli's document can be found here: https://federalists.eu/federalist-library/the-ventotene-manifesto/ https://federalists.eu/federalist-library/the-ventotene-mani... It says things like, "In order to respond to our needs, the European revolution must be socialist" and "By this dictatorship of the revolutionary party a new State will be formed, and around this State new, genuine democracy will grow". It goes on like that in quite some detail. Although the document is insane Spinelli went on to be one of the founding architects of the EU. He is officially credited as a "pioneer of the EU": https://european-union.europa.eu/principles-countries-history/history-eu/eu-pioneers_en https://european-union.europa.eu/principles-countries-histor... and a "founding father of the EU": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_fathers_of_the_European_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_fathers_of_the_Europe... He became one of the first members of the European Commission and was a member of the European Parliament. He was also one of the primary authors of the "Draft Treaty for establishment of the European Union" in 1984 that directly led to the creation of the modern EU itself via the Maastricht Treaty, which imported a lot of its ideas. The Draft Treaty can be found here: https://federalists.eu/federalist-library/draft-treaty-establishing-the-european-union-14-february-1984/ https://federalists.eu/federalist-library/draft-treaty-estab... It not only mentions the goal of ever closer union (with no mention of subsidiarity), but mandates it legally in Article 11, which defines "cooperation" to mean control by member states and "common action" to mean things directly controlled by the EU institutions. It then states in plain English that a topic may be moved from cooperation to common action, but never in reverse. It also states that powers go through this one way transfer to the EU based only on a vote of the EU Parliament, with member state parliaments themselves getting no say in it. So the idea of abolishing national states has always been very visible among the EU's "founding fathers".