4 ms·

Eh, you can split us Europeans up into two camps; those who do not want to see the problem and those who couldn't look away. The second camp saw the craziness

Eh, you can split us Europeans up into two camps; those who do not want to see the problem and those who couldn't look away. The second camp saw the craziness when the later Bush was elected a second time.

tosapple 28d ago
one of those bush votes was to ensure he could clean up his own mess.
- Forgeties79 28d ago
  I’m curious what you mean by this. At face value it seems like a weird rationalization but I get the sense I’m not reading this correctly.
- wilg 28d ago
  lmao what
- tosapple 26d ago
  what kind've voter intimidating sh* is this? down-voted for being honest, promoting understanding and responsibility? jokes on you guys as i firmly believe bullying racketeering and intimidation are quite literally terrorism when applied to population groups consisting of more than (1) individual. careful on that slippery slope.
whatsThisBtn4 28d ago
I'd split it into 2 camps. Elites who realize Europe isn't a unified group or has a military strong enough for defense.. And people who get wet when France says they are going to send soldiers to Ukraine and it never materializes. The general population has 0 understanding of international relations. It's the United States and China right now. Any other belief comes from someone who has read 0 international relations Realism books.
- sebmellen 28d ago
  Realpolitik sorely lacking
  - whatsThisBtn4 28d ago
    Even the "educated" people on HN have literal incorrect understanding. It's a difficult problem to solve.
- gman83 28d ago
  Its not that Europeans havent read Mearsheimer. its that for the best part of three hundred years the whole of Europe has been trying that same realist script until there was nothing left but total ruin across the entire continent. Europeans who created the EU knew about balance of power geopolitics so well, they created this slow bureaucratic mess specifically to stop Germany and France sliding back into the same old lethal habit. While clumsy positioning between the US and China is a headache in the present moment for Europe, compared to a tedious Union Europeans prefer reawakenings of 1914 in their backyard. Well at least so far.
  - YZF 28d ago
    I would bet any amount that if you go to a random European city and stop 100 random people on the street you'd be lucky if one person has even heard of Mearsheimer. I think you're also overthinking how the EU got created. I don't think pre-EU Europe was on the brink of violence either. It was more IMO simplistic (but possibly correct, who knows) thinking that it's stronger (economically) as a block. A lot of present day Europe issues that might lead to bigger problems are potentially worse because of the EU.
    - jpleyden98 28d ago
      You're just showing your ignorance and lack of knowledge about the history of the EU. Whilst the EU in it's current form did not exist until 1993, it's predecessor the European Coal and Steel Community was formed in 1950 with the Schuman Declaration: https://european-union.europa.eu/principles-countries-history/history-eu/1945-59/schuman-declaration-may-1950_en https://european-union.europa.eu/principles-countries-histor... The primary goal of this was to prevent another war by joining european economies together economically. It's not 'overthinking it'. It quite literally is the main reason and you can go and read the speeches from the politicians at the time to confirm this. Heres a direct quote from the declaration itself > The solidarity in production thus established will make it plain that any war between France and Germany becomes not merely unthinkable, but materially impossible. The fact that the european powers (with the exception of russia) are largely at peace with each other and haven't had a major war with each other since the second world war is very unusual given european history.

tosapple 28d ago

one of those bush votes was to ensure he could clean up his own mess.

Forgeties79 28d ago
I’m curious what you mean by this. At face value it seems like a weird rationalization but I get the sense I’m not reading this correctly.
wilg 28d ago
lmao what
tosapple 26d ago
what kind've voter intimidating sh* is this? down-voted for being honest, promoting understanding and responsibility? jokes on you guys as i firmly believe bullying racketeering and intimidation are quite literally terrorism when applied to population groups consisting of more than (1) individual. careful on that slippery slope.

whatsThisBtn4 28d ago

I'd split it into 2 camps. Elites who realize Europe isn't a unified group or has a military strong enough for defense.. And people who get wet when France says they are going to send soldiers to Ukraine and it never materializes. The general population has 0 understanding of international relations. It's the United States and China right now. Any other belief comes from someone who has read 0 international relations Realism books.

sebmellen 28d ago
Realpolitik sorely lacking
- whatsThisBtn4 28d ago
  Even the "educated" people on HN have literal incorrect understanding. It's a difficult problem to solve.
gman83 28d ago
Its not that Europeans havent read Mearsheimer. its that for the best part of three hundred years the whole of Europe has been trying that same realist script until there was nothing left but total ruin across the entire continent. Europeans who created the EU knew about balance of power geopolitics so well, they created this slow bureaucratic mess specifically to stop Germany and France sliding back into the same old lethal habit. While clumsy positioning between the US and China is a headache in the present moment for Europe, compared to a tedious Union Europeans prefer reawakenings of 1914 in their backyard. Well at least so far.
- YZF 28d ago
  I would bet any amount that if you go to a random European city and stop 100 random people on the street you'd be lucky if one person has even heard of Mearsheimer. I think you're also overthinking how the EU got created. I don't think pre-EU Europe was on the brink of violence either. It was more IMO simplistic (but possibly correct, who knows) thinking that it's stronger (economically) as a block. A lot of present day Europe issues that might lead to bigger problems are potentially worse because of the EU.
  - jpleyden98 28d ago
    You're just showing your ignorance and lack of knowledge about the history of the EU. Whilst the EU in it's current form did not exist until 1993, it's predecessor the European Coal and Steel Community was formed in 1950 with the Schuman Declaration: https://european-union.europa.eu/principles-countries-history/history-eu/1945-59/schuman-declaration-may-1950_en https://european-union.europa.eu/principles-countries-histor... The primary goal of this was to prevent another war by joining european economies together economically. It's not 'overthinking it'. It quite literally is the main reason and you can go and read the speeches from the politicians at the time to confirm this. Heres a direct quote from the declaration itself > The solidarity in production thus established will make it plain that any war between France and Germany becomes not merely unthinkable, but materially impossible. The fact that the european powers (with the exception of russia) are largely at peace with each other and haven't had a major war with each other since the second world war is very unusual given european history.