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Russia's word has been ironclad each time it's been given to Ukraine previously. It surely would be the same this time.

by JohnTHaller 29d ago

ericmay 29d ago
So you don’t think the two sides should even try to find a diplomatic solution?
- JohnTHaller 29d ago
  This is Russia's second violation of the Budapest Memorandum. We know Putin will simply ignore another treaty when he feels like. We also know the US under the current administration is "negotiating" in bad faith (via the president's son-in-law) and will do even less when the next treaty violation occurs.
  - ericmay 29d ago
    No we don’t know that the current administration is negotiating in bad faith. That’s your opinion and one that doesn’t really reflect how the world of diplomacy and interactions between nation states work. Why would you waste time and money when any deal in which would be negotiated in bad faith requires Ukrainian participation? Second, yes the Budapest Memorandum was violated. Why didn’t the other parties do anything or immediately declare war on Russia besides just the United States? Here’s a better question though: why didn’t the EU do something when Russia violated it? Is your gear ready? Are you ready to deploy to the front lines? Why are 600 million Europeans asking 340 million Americans to defend them from 180 million Russians?
    - JohnTHaller 29d ago
      Can you honestly say with a straight face that you believe Jared Kushner is in Moscow negotiating in good faith with Putin with respect to Ukraine? Especially given his lack of experience and multiple corruption accusations and investigations. And that Trump has illegally withheld Ukrainian assistance in the past and stopped it in the future. Given that Trump's "peace plan" is essentially for Ukraine to give up even more territory and partially disarm - decreasing the size of their military and giving up long-range weapons... and there's no such provisions for Russia to do anything of the sort. The plan all but sets up Russia's next invasion of a weakened Ukraine. The US didn't declare war on Russia. The EU isn't a party to the Budapest Memorandum. Ukraine, US, UK, and Russia are with China and France giving separate assurances.
      - ericmay 29d ago
        > Can you honestly say with a straight face that you believe Jared Kushner is in Moscow negotiating in good faith with Putin with respect to Ukraine? I can't say anything other than what is officially reported. Everything else is a conspiracy theory. While I definitely agree with you that he's inexperienced, who exactly from Europe is flying to Moscow and attempting to negotiate? You can't just sit here and say the US isn't trying just because you don't like the folks that were sent. > Given that Trump's "peace plan" is essentially for Ukraine to give up even more territory and partially disarm - decreasing the size of their military and giving up long-range weapons... and there's no such provisions for Russia to do anything of the sort. The plan all but sets up Russia's next invasion of a weakened Ukraine. Ok so then you don't want to see any attempt at negotiation and just want to see the war continue? The problem is you're playing ideological games when we need to figure out a pragmatic solution. I don't think Ukraine should give up territory it controls, for example, but if it has to give up some territory that it has little chance of taking back for the sake of peace maybe it should do so. Unless you are willing to go to war with Russia you need to figure something out. > The US didn't declare war on Russia. The EU isn't a party to the Budapest Memorandum. Ukraine, US, UK, and Russia are with China and France giving separate assurances. So what? You want the United States and United Kingdom to go to war with Russia now? I don't know what citing the Budapest Memorandum is accomplishing here other than attempting to further drive division between western allies.
        JohnTHaller 29d ago
        You said: > Why didn’t the other parties do anything or immediately declare war on Russia besides just the United States? I pointed out the fallacy of your statement. The US didn't declare war on Russia. And the fact that the EU isn't a party to the Budapest Memorandum, so they're not supposed to be defending Ukraine from Russia. Now, you're saying that the we should ignore the Budapest Memorandum and negotiate in good faith with a tyrant like Putin that never negotiates in good faith. And violates agreements without thinking twice. And that somehow sending a fraudulent "negotiator" like Kushner is somehow a good thing and the US acting in good faith. Also: > I can't say anything other than what is officially reported. Everything else is a conspiracy theory. The actual reporting by multiple news organizations contains far more factual details than anything 'officially' released by a convicted fraud and adjudicated rapist. Or his sycophants.
    - ben_w 29d ago
      > Second, yes the Budapest Memorandum was violated. Why didn’t the other parties do anything or immediately declare war on Russia besides just the United States? The immediate reaction of the other parties was roughly the same as the USA's immediate reaction. > Here’s a better question though: why didn’t the EU do something when Russia violated it? The EU isn't party to the Budapest Memorandum. > Is your gear ready? It is actively being sent, unlike US gear which appears to have stopped roughly with Trump taking over. > Are you ready to deploy to the front lines? We aren't asking you to deploy to the front lines of Ukraine. Why do you even think this has been asked of you? > Why are 600 million Europeans asking 340 million Americans to defend them from 180 million Russians? This is an entirely separate question to Ukraine. About 500 million Europeans are living in a NATO state. For them, if war came to them (which it has not yet done so!), the answer is "Article 5". We're already wondering if the USA honour its obligations, so yet again the very fact you have even asked this question makes us trust the USA less. It's almost like you think, as the Russians keep claiming, NATO was never really a mutual defence treaty, but a way for the USA to be stronger. That said, a thought crosses my mind: If I were a Chinese or Russian propagandist, I'd get someone to do what you're doing now. Or, better yet, convince some actual Americans to do what you're doing now. "Divide and conquer, baby. Isolate the big scary army from all their allies who are also their industrial suppliers and FOBs!"
      - ben_w 29d ago
        > The immediate reaction of the other parties was roughly the same as the USA's immediate reaction. Other Western parties, I should have written. Wikipedia list of parties to the Budapest Memorandum: Belarus, Kazakhstan, Ukraine, Russia, United States, United Kingdom Oh look, Germany, France, Poland, Finland, they are not on that list. And yet, still supply more support to Ukraine than the US government is currently supplying.
      - ericmay 29d ago
        > The immediate reaction of the other parties was roughly the same as the USA's immediate reaction. Well the US and UK rushed munitions. But aside from that it just makes Western Europe culpable for failing > It is actively being sent, unlike US gear which appears to have stopped roughly with Trump taking over. We aren't asking you to deploy to the front lines of Ukraine. Why do you even think this has been asked of you? You can just do the research for yourself to see and understand the troop levels and equipment placed throughout Europe. What you're writing here doesn't make sense and it reflects what you want to be true and not what is actually true. > This is an entirely separate question to Ukraine. Not really > We're already wondering if the USA honour its obligations, so yet again the very fact you have even asked this question makes us trust the USA less. If the military presence, continued training exercises, continued well, functioning of NATO means you now don't trust us, then why are we there? You don't trust us, we could just turn on you any moment! Your belief does not reflect reality. > That said, a thought crosses my mind: If I were a Chinese or Russian propagandist, I'd get someone to do what you're doing now. Or, better yet, convince some actual Americans to do what you're doing now. You're the one saying "we don't trust you" "you don't support Ukraine" etc. and neither of those are true. You're purposefully driving divisions when none need exist.
- Danox 29d ago
  At this point there is no diplomatic solution, it certainly isn’t gonna come from taco. He’s just looking for a distraction from the Iran debacle and everything else that has gone on or has gone wrong with his administration.
  - ericmay 29d ago
    That doesn't make sense because his administration was attempting to negotiate at least a year prior to the start of the Iran war.

Russia's word has been ironclad each time it's been given to Ukraine previously. It surely would be the same this time.

ericmay 29d ago

So you don’t think the two sides should even try to find a diplomatic solution?

JohnTHaller 29d ago
This is Russia's second violation of the Budapest Memorandum. We know Putin will simply ignore another treaty when he feels like. We also know the US under the current administration is "negotiating" in bad faith (via the president's son-in-law) and will do even less when the next treaty violation occurs.
- ericmay 29d ago
  No we don’t know that the current administration is negotiating in bad faith. That’s your opinion and one that doesn’t really reflect how the world of diplomacy and interactions between nation states work. Why would you waste time and money when any deal in which would be negotiated in bad faith requires Ukrainian participation? Second, yes the Budapest Memorandum was violated. Why didn’t the other parties do anything or immediately declare war on Russia besides just the United States? Here’s a better question though: why didn’t the EU do something when Russia violated it? Is your gear ready? Are you ready to deploy to the front lines? Why are 600 million Europeans asking 340 million Americans to defend them from 180 million Russians?
  - JohnTHaller 29d ago
    Can you honestly say with a straight face that you believe Jared Kushner is in Moscow negotiating in good faith with Putin with respect to Ukraine? Especially given his lack of experience and multiple corruption accusations and investigations. And that Trump has illegally withheld Ukrainian assistance in the past and stopped it in the future. Given that Trump's "peace plan" is essentially for Ukraine to give up even more territory and partially disarm - decreasing the size of their military and giving up long-range weapons... and there's no such provisions for Russia to do anything of the sort. The plan all but sets up Russia's next invasion of a weakened Ukraine. The US didn't declare war on Russia. The EU isn't a party to the Budapest Memorandum. Ukraine, US, UK, and Russia are with China and France giving separate assurances.
    - ericmay 29d ago
      > Can you honestly say with a straight face that you believe Jared Kushner is in Moscow negotiating in good faith with Putin with respect to Ukraine? I can't say anything other than what is officially reported. Everything else is a conspiracy theory. While I definitely agree with you that he's inexperienced, who exactly from Europe is flying to Moscow and attempting to negotiate? You can't just sit here and say the US isn't trying just because you don't like the folks that were sent. > Given that Trump's "peace plan" is essentially for Ukraine to give up even more territory and partially disarm - decreasing the size of their military and giving up long-range weapons... and there's no such provisions for Russia to do anything of the sort. The plan all but sets up Russia's next invasion of a weakened Ukraine. Ok so then you don't want to see any attempt at negotiation and just want to see the war continue? The problem is you're playing ideological games when we need to figure out a pragmatic solution. I don't think Ukraine should give up territory it controls, for example, but if it has to give up some territory that it has little chance of taking back for the sake of peace maybe it should do so. Unless you are willing to go to war with Russia you need to figure something out. > The US didn't declare war on Russia. The EU isn't a party to the Budapest Memorandum. Ukraine, US, UK, and Russia are with China and France giving separate assurances. So what? You want the United States and United Kingdom to go to war with Russia now? I don't know what citing the Budapest Memorandum is accomplishing here other than attempting to further drive division between western allies.
      - JohnTHaller 29d ago
        You said: > Why didn’t the other parties do anything or immediately declare war on Russia besides just the United States? I pointed out the fallacy of your statement. The US didn't declare war on Russia. And the fact that the EU isn't a party to the Budapest Memorandum, so they're not supposed to be defending Ukraine from Russia. Now, you're saying that the we should ignore the Budapest Memorandum and negotiate in good faith with a tyrant like Putin that never negotiates in good faith. And violates agreements without thinking twice. And that somehow sending a fraudulent "negotiator" like Kushner is somehow a good thing and the US acting in good faith. Also: > I can't say anything other than what is officially reported. Everything else is a conspiracy theory. The actual reporting by multiple news organizations contains far more factual details than anything 'officially' released by a convicted fraud and adjudicated rapist. Or his sycophants.
  - ben_w 29d ago
    > Second, yes the Budapest Memorandum was violated. Why didn’t the other parties do anything or immediately declare war on Russia besides just the United States? The immediate reaction of the other parties was roughly the same as the USA's immediate reaction. > Here’s a better question though: why didn’t the EU do something when Russia violated it? The EU isn't party to the Budapest Memorandum. > Is your gear ready? It is actively being sent, unlike US gear which appears to have stopped roughly with Trump taking over. > Are you ready to deploy to the front lines? We aren't asking you to deploy to the front lines of Ukraine. Why do you even think this has been asked of you? > Why are 600 million Europeans asking 340 million Americans to defend them from 180 million Russians? This is an entirely separate question to Ukraine. About 500 million Europeans are living in a NATO state. For them, if war came to them (which it has not yet done so!), the answer is "Article 5". We're already wondering if the USA honour its obligations, so yet again the very fact you have even asked this question makes us trust the USA less. It's almost like you think, as the Russians keep claiming, NATO was never really a mutual defence treaty, but a way for the USA to be stronger. That said, a thought crosses my mind: If I were a Chinese or Russian propagandist, I'd get someone to do what you're doing now. Or, better yet, convince some actual Americans to do what you're doing now. "Divide and conquer, baby. Isolate the big scary army from all their allies who are also their industrial suppliers and FOBs!"
    - ben_w 29d ago
      > The immediate reaction of the other parties was roughly the same as the USA's immediate reaction. Other Western parties, I should have written. Wikipedia list of parties to the Budapest Memorandum: Belarus, Kazakhstan, Ukraine, Russia, United States, United Kingdom Oh look, Germany, France, Poland, Finland, they are not on that list. And yet, still supply more support to Ukraine than the US government is currently supplying.
    - ericmay 29d ago
      > The immediate reaction of the other parties was roughly the same as the USA's immediate reaction. Well the US and UK rushed munitions. But aside from that it just makes Western Europe culpable for failing > It is actively being sent, unlike US gear which appears to have stopped roughly with Trump taking over. We aren't asking you to deploy to the front lines of Ukraine. Why do you even think this has been asked of you? You can just do the research for yourself to see and understand the troop levels and equipment placed throughout Europe. What you're writing here doesn't make sense and it reflects what you want to be true and not what is actually true. > This is an entirely separate question to Ukraine. Not really > We're already wondering if the USA honour its obligations, so yet again the very fact you have even asked this question makes us trust the USA less. If the military presence, continued training exercises, continued well, functioning of NATO means you now don't trust us, then why are we there? You don't trust us, we could just turn on you any moment! Your belief does not reflect reality. > That said, a thought crosses my mind: If I were a Chinese or Russian propagandist, I'd get someone to do what you're doing now. Or, better yet, convince some actual Americans to do what you're doing now. You're the one saying "we don't trust you" "you don't support Ukraine" etc. and neither of those are true. You're purposefully driving divisions when none need exist.
Danox 29d ago
At this point there is no diplomatic solution, it certainly isn’t gonna come from taco. He’s just looking for a distraction from the Iran debacle and everything else that has gone on or has gone wrong with his administration.
- ericmay 29d ago
  That doesn't make sense because his administration was attempting to negotiate at least a year prior to the start of the Iran war.