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This is a huge success, but it I think also tells us that the EU is further decoupling itself from the US. Slowly but steadily. Which is obviously the right th
by hypfer 1mo ago
This is a huge success, but it I think also tells us that the EU is further decoupling itself from the US. Slowly but steadily.
Which is obviously the right thing to do, but it's interesting that it's not just a hypothetical anymore.
- gilliethefoil 1mo ago[dead]
- shevy-java 1mo ago[flagged]
- ericmay 1mo ago> Just look at how today the USA tried to hand over land of Ukraine to Putin Was it the land that Russia currently controls and Ukraine is very unlikely to retake? There's a spectrum between ideological behavior and pragmatic behavior. If Ukraine gives up this land and achieves peace, maybe it's worth it. I'm not suggesting it definitely is but at least the US is trying to negotiate or find some sort of solution, even if it's not going well. In retrospect the US should have prepared for war and been willing to fight to uphold what was agreed to with Russia but that would have been a hard sell. > So, no more support to that crazy country. Nah Europe will still support it. Nothing will change there. But if you want things to change, we can completely withdraw from NATO, move bases back from Europe where we see fit, and un-sanction Russia while no longer providing support to Ukraine in any fashion and no longer sell weapons to Europe. That would be a disaster for Europe, which is why I tend to think comments like this are either ignorant, or pro-Russia/Iran/China with the intent to further inflame whatever tensions exist.
- JohnTHaller 1mo agoRussia's word has been ironclad each time it's been given to Ukraine previously. It surely would be the same this time.
- ericmay 1mo agoSo you don’t think the two sides should even try to find a diplomatic solution?
- JohnTHaller 1mo agoThis is Russia's second violation of the Budapest Memorandum. We know Putin will simply ignore another treaty when he feels like. We also know the US under the current administration is "negotiating" in bad faith (via the president's son-in-law) and will do even less when the next treaty violation occurs.
- ericmay 1mo agoNo we don’t know that the current administration is negotiating in bad faith. That’s your opinion and one that doesn’t really reflect how the world of diplomacy and interactions between nation states work. Why would you waste time and money when any deal in which would be negotiated in bad faith requires Ukrainian participation? Second, yes the Budapest Memorandum was violated. Why didn’t the other parties do anything or immediately declare war on Russia besides just the United States? Here’s a better question though: why didn’t the EU do something when Russia violated it? Is your gear ready? Are you ready to deploy to the front lines? Why are 600 million Europeans asking 340 million Americans to defend them from 180 million Russians?
- JohnTHaller 1mo agoCan you honestly say with a straight face that you believe Jared Kushner is in Moscow negotiating in good faith with Putin with respect to Ukraine? Especially given his lack of experience and multiple corruption accusations and investigations. And that Trump has illegally withheld Ukrainian assistance in the past and stopped it in the future. Given that Trump's "peace plan" is essentially for Ukraine to give up even more territory and partially disarm - decreasing the size of their military and giving up long-range weapons... and there's no such provisions for Russia to do anything of the sort. The plan all but sets up Russia's next invasion of a weakened Ukraine. The US didn't declare war on Russia. The EU isn't a party to the Budapest Memorandum. Ukraine, US, UK, and Russia are with China and France giving separate assurances.
- ben_w 1mo ago> Was it the land that Russia currently controls and Ukraine is very unlikely to retake? There's a spectrum between ideological behavior and pragmatic behavior. If Ukraine gives up this land and achieves peace, maybe it's worth it. I'm not suggesting it definitely is but at least the US is trying to negotiate or find some sort of solution, even if it's not going well. It wasn't the US's decision to make, certainly not without having talked to Ukraine. And right now, well, this war will continue until one of them runs out of money. The EU currently appears to consider Ukrainian sovereignty in this war to be in their own national interests, so they will keep funding it. Who will support the Russian economy in the same way? > Nah Europe will still support it. Nothing will change there. But if you want things to change, we can completely withdraw from NATO, move bases back from Europe where we see fit, and un-sanction Russia while no longer providing support to Ukraine in any fashion and no longer sell weapons to Europe. That would be a disaster for Europe, which is why I tend to think comments like this are either ignorant, or pro-Russia/Iran/China with the intent to further inflame whatever tensions exist. You, and many like you, really need to stop thinking Trump's behaviour is something that can be easily undone. You write to suggest dissenting voices are pro-China: Trump's actions have already forced many in the EU to consider the USA to be a bigger threat than China. This isn't us liking China, we think poorly of their human rights record etc., it's just that the USA has fallen that far in our eyes. Just to make it specific: Which city do you live in? I want you to imagine it getting actually, literally, nuked by French or British missiles in response to the USA doing what Trump keeps saying he'll do to Canada or Greenland. Actual nukes. I hope that will stay imagination. Trump has a lot of levers he could pull that would be de facto acts of war besides annexing allies like he says he wants to. Ordering all the tech companies to stop providing services overnight, even that might do it given current dependencies.
- ericmay 1mo ago> It wasn't the US's decision to make, certainly not without having talked to Ukraine. Didn’t suggest it was, but at the end of the day it’s the US who is the partner at the table who can make the biggest difference and bringing Ukraine in to the room with Russia will just result in conflict and no hope of figuring things out diplomatically. Of course any deal that the US attempted to broker would have to be agreed to by Ukraine as well. Everyone understands this. > , and many like you, really need to stop thinking Trump's behaviour is something that can be easily undone. His actions have already forced many in the EU to consider the USA to be a bigger threat than China. Ok then we should do what I mentioned. It’s over. Is the EU ready to abandon Taiwan? Because if not, and let’s not ignore the G20 statement nor Germany hemorrhaging jobs and pretend the EU is cozying up to China. The US can just do the same and partner with China if it decided to. > I hope that will stay imagination. It won’t because it’s hyperbole that can be casually discarded. > Trump has a lot of levers he could pull that would be de facto acts of war besides annexing allies like he says he wants to. Ordering all the tech companies to stop providing services overnight, even that might do it given current dependencies. Nah he can’t do that. Tone down the imagination and sensationalizing
- ph4rsikal 1mo agoIt is indeed a huge success but it also underlines how far ahead the rest of the world is.
- hypfer 1mo agoI'd honestly rather like to use this opportunity to talk about that this is a success than returning to our regularly scheduled doomer loop. A rocket launched into orbit from Norway. That's insane progress and worth celebrating.
- ericmay 1mo ago[flagged]
- hypfer 1mo agoYou know.. the things I get flagged for, and then you post stuff like this. I'm not even sure what to make out of that dismissal opener other than that you've apparently didn't like whatever I wrote.
- ericmay 1mo ago[flagged]
- hypfer 1mo agoI'm honestly not sure if this is the right platform then. And that's coming from me, who is already tiptoeing the letter of the law in pursuit of the spirit of the law. I don't see you contributing to the space here. Just to yourself and your self-image, maybe. Like.. not even trying.
- ericmay 1mo agoWell, if you don’t think it’s the right platform for you there’s no need to post or engage with it. I don’t use traditional social media platforms for example. > I don't see you contributing to the space here. Just to yourself and your self-image, maybe. Like.. not even trying. In that same spirit your comment wouldn’t have been contributing either. You don’t like to see comments I guess about people talking about how far behind the EU is as it continues to be eaten alive by American and Chinese industrial policy, and I don’t like comments about “decoupling”.
- yellowapple 1mo agoThe EU already had quite a bit of non-EU spaceflight capability, both in terms of rockets and launch sites.
- decimalenough 1mo agoI think you meant non-US? Although Ariane's rockets are wildly expensive and uncompetitive compared to SpaceX.
- samrus 1mo agoCost decreases with scale. Spacex was also wildly expensive, it grew up thanks to government assistance
- holoduke 1mo agoNo because of reduction of bureaucracy. ESA is the prime example of 1 engineer to 50 managers culture.
- Robotbeat 1mo agoThis is an inaccurate simplification
- tekla 1mo ago> it grew up thanks to government assistance Please give an example of gov assistance that was not a open contract to every private launch company in the US
- wand3r 1mo agoYeah, I really hate this revisionism of Elon as an extremely wealthy apartheid emerald mine heir who was a dumb guy who happened to get lucky at paypal and then stole all his money from the government while operating a car and rocket company. There is plenty to criticize about him, but SpaceX dramatically decreased cost to orbit which had reliance on Russian technology at the time.
- atherton94027 1mo agoThe french always had Ariane??
- weinzierl 1mo agoThe Ariane is as much German as it is French. It is considerably Italian too.
- atherton94027 1mo agoThis is incorrect, ArianeGroup is mostly french, it's a joint venture between Airbus and Safran.
- m4rtink 1mo agoAvio does the Ariane SRBs & it is an Italian company.
- atherton94027 1mo agoIt's another 50% joint venture?
- weinzierl 1mo agoWho owns how much of the enterprise says little about who contributes to and owns control and know-how of the project. This is even more true for a political project like the Ariane. Not to diminish France's contribution but without Germany and Italy there would be no Ariane. France could not build one and could not fly one.
- weinzierl 1mo agoThe work and know-how is mainly spread between Germany, France and Italy. The mechanism that ensures it is called "national return". The order volume per country has to correspond to the countries respective monetary contribution. I worked on the Ariane from 2000 to 2006."National return" was a pain for all the smaller companies and they usually founded subsidiaries in all the other member states to game the system. Without Germany and Italy, France can build and fly no Ariane. Not even close.
- manlymuppet 1mo agoI think we are stronger together. European technology has been critical to many important American space missions, and that should continue to be the case. An ecosystem where we develop things independently is one where everyone loses.
- cyanydeez 1mo agoThe opinion of american billionaires is driving this.
- samrus 1mo agoI dont think the EU is stronger when they get bullied and undermined by trump, or whichever american president decides to dust off trump's playbook in the future
- zormino 1mo agoI think the stronger together argument implies good faith co-operation on both sides
- samrus 1mo agoYeah. Exactly. Thats not a guarantee anymore
- manlymuppet 1mo agoIt never was a guarantee. But it is worth fighting for cooperation, rather than accepting it cannot be anymore.
- eps 1mo ago> I think we are stronger together That's pretty damn obvious to everyone with a half of brain, yet here we are being pulled apart.
- panick21_ 1mo ago
- rexskimmer 1mo agoThey started developing this rocket in the late 2010s, way before the current US craziness (or the current level of craziness anyway). Independent access to space is always desirable for countries that can muster the resources, but this is just one of many companies that appeared back then as a response to SpaceX's initial success.
- Eupolemos 1mo agoEh, you can split us Europeans up into two camps; those who do not want to see the problem and those who couldn't look away. The second camp saw the craziness when the later Bush was elected a second time.
- tosapple 1mo agoone of those bush votes was to ensure he could clean up his own mess.
- Forgeties79 1mo agoI’m curious what you mean by this. At face value it seems like a weird rationalization but I get the sense I’m not reading this correctly.
- wilg 1mo agolmao what
- tosapple 1mo agowhat kind've voter intimidating sh* is this? down-voted for being honest, promoting understanding and responsibility? jokes on you guys as i firmly believe bullying racketeering and intimidation are quite literally terrorism when applied to population groups consisting of more than (1) individual. careful on that slippery slope.
- whatsThisBtn4 1mo agoI'd split it into 2 camps. Elites who realize Europe isn't a unified group or has a military strong enough for defense.. And people who get wet when France says they are going to send soldiers to Ukraine and it never materializes. The general population has 0 understanding of international relations. It's the United States and China right now. Any other belief comes from someone who has read 0 international relations Realism books.
- hn_submit 1mo agoMultiple European nations gaining their own independent launch capabilities will merely result in the sinking of ESA and ArianeSpace. Look forward to lots of infighting in the near future.
- Tuna-Fish 1mo agoESA is going to remain on the mission/payload side. ArianeSpace makes sense as a launch services provider handling everything that's not the rocket. ArianeGroup (the company that actually builds the rockets) will just become the French rocket company that will end up competing with the Italian and German ones.
- hn_submit 1mo agoLike most "small rocket companies" they'll come to the conclusion that they need bigger rockets to launch bigger payloads. Rockets that compete directly with Ariane 6. With some luck these will be reusable to, making Ariane 6 and ArianeSpace obsolete. ESA and ArianeSpace will slowly but surely decay into obsolescence.
- Tuna-Fish 1mo agoYou seem to be confused about what organizations do what. ESA neither launches or builds rockets. They are an end-user, and they own the launch infrastructure in Kourou. Both these roles will exist long after Ariane is gone. Arianespace does not build rockets. It's a launch services provider, they purchase the rockets from other companies, handle all the logistics and manage the launchpad. It's in no way married to Ariane 6, and it has in the past and still does sell launches on multiple different rockets from different companies. There will be demand for these services even after Ariane the rocket is gone. ArianeGroup is the company that builds Ariane 6. They are a complex co-owned project between Airbus and Safran, with workshare distributed between France and Germany. They make other things than the Ariane 6, notably the French SLBM. Eventually the Ariane 6 will go away, because it will be obsolete, but that will not necessarily mean that ArianeGroup will go under, because they have an another subsidiary called ArianeWorks developing a new rocket, called Themis.
- clickety_clack 1mo agoCoupled or uncoupled, an equal relationship between the US and the EU is much healthier. Europe should have an economy, military and industrial capacity similar to the US.
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- vladms 1mo agoWhile in the current case I agree it is the path that should be taken, ideally I would prefer efficient relations, where people cooperate rather than having to duplicate everything because they don't trust their neighbor (should I make my bread because the baker might decide to poison me?!). But having educated people everywhere is hard, so some people, because they don't get how some stuff works, they try to abuse friends and allies and make things worse (inefficient) for everybody in the process.
- clickety_clack 1mo ago“Speak softly and carry a big stick”. A Europe that is internally powerful can conduct trade in the fair and liberal way that matches its ideals.
- gspr 1mo agoIdeally, yes. But when the baker is running around with a red hat renaming lakes, you have to start kneading if you have any sense.
- 9dev 1mo agoIt’s frustrating to share a planet with poison-pouring bakers and other primates, really, when you see what humanity could be
- mlmonkey 1mo agoAre we forgetting about Ariane?
- Fordec 1mo agoLaunched from South America, not Europe.
- mlmonkey 1mo agoAriane is from the ESA, which is an organization under EU. The claim was that "EU is finally decoupling itself from the USA". My point is: the EU already has Ariane, for instance. It decoupled a long time ago.
- martinclayton 1mo agoESA is a separate entity to the EU. (When the UK left the EU it was able to remain in ESA because of this separation.)
- m4rtink 1mo agoI don't thin ESA builds Ariane or any production launchers for that manner - Arianespace does.
- kzrdude 1mo agoIt's from the European part of South America.
- ExoticPearTree 1mo agoAriane is an expensive legacy rocket.
- Danox 1mo agoIf they haven’t gotten the message yet, they never will congratulations, plan on doing more because you’re gonna have to.
- aaron695 1mo ago[dead]
- sva_ 1mo agoI think being a competitor in a market doesn't mean you're 'decoupling' from it, rather you're on equal footing.
- amazingamazing 1mo agoWhy is this a sign of decoupling? Is any EU technological development decoupling?
- xyzelement 1mo agoDoes it mean that? Europe has had a space agency for a while now. So this story isn't "Europeans finally started to launch for space" but a private European company chose to launch from a continental location. It's funny how we can't be celebrate a European achievement without trying to interpret it into relationship to the US.
- postingawayonhn 1mo agoYes, they've had a space agency, but the only launchers are expensive legacy vehicles. This launch is a move towards lower cost and more frequent launches, that in the US are provided by SpaceX.
- nine_k 1mo agoIt's not even the US in general, it's SpaceX specifically. Only the US and China have demonstrated reusable rockets, and only SpaceX demonstrated the actual reuse, the cadence and the economy of scale that it brings.
- toomuchtodo 1mo agoIt means the laws of physics allow it, and anyone willing to invest the time and fiat to accomplish it can. This means the world will no longer need to rely on SpaceX for inexpensive lift to orbit through reusable first stages, which is objectively good. No different then China working towards obviating the need for ASML for EUV semiconductor manufacturing.
- panick21_ 1mo agoJust because you invest in it doesn't mean you end up with hugely cheap and scalable launch. Europe has already invested far more in rocket then SpaceX did and isn't close. If your capital efficiency is far lower, it might not be inexpensive. If you can get the scale because you don't have payloads, its going to be more expensive. There is a incredibly long road between 'rocket can land' and 'cheap and scalable launch'. A long road most people don't see because its not as flashy as landing.
- SlightlyLeftPad 1mo agoI think having more distribution in launch locations and more provider options will ultimately be a net positive in the long run.
- YayGermany 1mo agoo/
- jmcgough 1mo agoThis took about eight years of work by a private company (funded by US VC and an ex-SpaceX leader). This wasn't an intentional decision to decouple from the US, if that's what you're implying, but a business decision.
- onion2k 1mo agoI've always assumed that the reason there aren't many launch sites in Europe because the booster stage falls back to Earth, and generally you want that to be over the sea. People get cross if rockets fall on their houses. If you're using the Earth's axial rotation as a helper that means launching heading east, and in Europe east is pretty much always over land. That's why most spaceports are either by an ocean (USA, Japan) or over a huge area of land no one lives in (Russia).
- FranOntanaya 1mo agoNot really, the actual issue is delta V, launching near the equator requires less fuel because you are getting all the benefit from Earth's rotation. Mass is almost everything for rocket launches. Northern launches are done sometimes for high inclination orbits since they reduce the need to maneuver from an equatorial orbit.