4 ms·

In short, at the risk of trivializing the argument: The ability to gleam private details about people is having some power over them. The entire modern theory

by iwwr 14y ago

In short, at the risk of trivializing the argument: The ability to gleam private details about people is having some power over them. The entire modern theory of government rests on limiting and dividing up the power of those in power. With mass surveillance, that balance is broken. Not only do we have private details on individuals, that knowledge is held by a small and unaccountable elite, protected by state secrets. Even if you live completely lawfully and morally and truly have nothing to hide you can either: 1. Unwittingly do something illegal (there are too many laws on the books for anyone to know they are completely innocent); or do something that can be construed as such, since the police and prosecutors can be fallible; 2. Still live in a society where a small group of individuals can exert blackmail and intimidation on a significant proportion of citizens. Even if that power would be rarely used, it creates an environment of fear. People start to be afraid to speak against abuse, those in power stand less for their own scrutiny.

techsupporter 14y ago
The "unwittingly do something illegal" is the most common refutation I've heard used. I think it's the most powerful as an example of the fallacy of this argument and an example of how unwieldy our laws have become in the United States. A coworker used the following story, apt since he lives in a state bordering another country: "Let's say I go to Canada for a day trip, Montreal perhaps. I speak enough French to get around but it's not so good after an evening of drinking and socializing. The next morning, I wake up with a powerful hangover headache. A pharmacy is nearby, but my head is pounding too hard to read the labels so I go to the pharmacist. In broken French, I ask him for some Tylenol. He asks me 'what kind?' 'Just one,' I reply. He sells me a small bottle with a Tylenol label; I pop a couple and put the rest in my bag. After I return home--declaring 'nothing' at the border, of course, since I forgot about the bottle of medicine--I find the bottle and notice the word 'Codeine' on the label. Canada sells 'Tylenol One,' a compound with this addition. I'm technically guilty of felony drug trafficking of a schedule 2 narcotic into the United States as well as felony concealment (drugs). Are you certain you've never done something seemingly innocent that's actually a serious crime?"
- wippler 14y ago
  Are you sure about this? Reading wikipedia suggests only 90mg or higher unit dosage falls under Schedule II narcotic. You may not be guilty after all :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codeine#North_America http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codeine#North_America
  - pi18n 14y ago
    This is not a helpful comment. The anecdote is not suggesting that everyone who commits an accidental crime is trafficking Tylenol One. It's a story about how a small action can turn out to be a felony. This has been true in other cases that have nothing to do with Codeine.
    - baddox 14y ago
      The anecdote relies on it being possible or such a situation to occur.
      - pi18n 14y ago
        Perhaps that particular situation cannot occur, but similar situations can and do occur. The point of the anecdote is that it is possible to commit a very serious crime without any mens rea or even realization.
      - pretoriusB 14y ago
        Yes, but not that one PARTICULAR situation. Come on people, don't respond like robots.
  - techsupporter 14y ago
    Good point. I'm not all that versed in US drug laws. However, having seen a whole bunch of signs when doing cruises, I imagine that telling the Customs agent that you have a bottle of medicine containing codeine isn't a good idea since Vicodin and the lot are only available by prescription. Either way, his point is still a good one, I think: Even if you're the most open and giving person on the planet, do you really want to court fate like that?
MaysonL 14y ago
Re: blackmail. Given the number of sexual and other scandals that have come to light regarding Congressional representatives in the past few decades, one wonders how many have been blackmailed, and how many are currently being blackmailed. See: http://www.davidbrin.com/blackmail.html http://www.davidbrin.com/blackmail.html

by iwwr 14y ago

techsupporter 14y ago

The "unwittingly do something illegal" is the most common refutation I've heard used. I think it's the most powerful as an example of the fallacy of this argument and an example of how unwieldy our laws have become in the United States. A coworker used the following story, apt since he lives in a state bordering another country: "Let's say I go to Canada for a day trip, Montreal perhaps. I speak enough French to get around but it's not so good after an evening of drinking and socializing. The next morning, I wake up with a powerful hangover headache. A pharmacy is nearby, but my head is pounding too hard to read the labels so I go to the pharmacist. In broken French, I ask him for some Tylenol. He asks me 'what kind?' 'Just one,' I reply. He sells me a small bottle with a Tylenol label; I pop a couple and put the rest in my bag. After I return home--declaring 'nothing' at the border, of course, since I forgot about the bottle of medicine--I find the bottle and notice the word 'Codeine' on the label. Canada sells 'Tylenol One,' a compound with this addition. I'm technically guilty of felony drug trafficking of a schedule 2 narcotic into the United States as well as felony concealment (drugs). Are you certain you've never done something seemingly innocent that's actually a serious crime?"

wippler 14y ago
Are you sure about this? Reading wikipedia suggests only 90mg or higher unit dosage falls under Schedule II narcotic. You may not be guilty after all :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codeine#North_America http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codeine#North_America
- pi18n 14y ago
  This is not a helpful comment. The anecdote is not suggesting that everyone who commits an accidental crime is trafficking Tylenol One. It's a story about how a small action can turn out to be a felony. This has been true in other cases that have nothing to do with Codeine.
  - baddox 14y ago
    The anecdote relies on it being possible or such a situation to occur.
    - pi18n 14y ago
      Perhaps that particular situation cannot occur, but similar situations can and do occur. The point of the anecdote is that it is possible to commit a very serious crime without any mens rea or even realization.
    - pretoriusB 14y ago
      Yes, but not that one PARTICULAR situation. Come on people, don't respond like robots.
- techsupporter 14y ago
  Good point. I'm not all that versed in US drug laws. However, having seen a whole bunch of signs when doing cruises, I imagine that telling the Customs agent that you have a bottle of medicine containing codeine isn't a good idea since Vicodin and the lot are only available by prescription. Either way, his point is still a good one, I think: Even if you're the most open and giving person on the planet, do you really want to court fate like that?

MaysonL 14y ago

Re: blackmail. Given the number of sexual and other scandals that have come to light regarding Congressional representatives in the past few decades, one wonders how many have been blackmailed, and how many are currently being blackmailed. See: http://www.davidbrin.com/blackmail.html http://www.davidbrin.com/blackmail.html