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You are not separating the vast majority of policing every day which is good and attempts to stop evil people. I’m not against transparency and reform, I’m sayi

You are not separating the vast majority of policing every day which is good and attempts to stop evil people. I’m not against transparency and reform, I’m saying these poor communities need more good policing not less.

Bud 21d ago
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cogman10 20d ago
> You are not separating the vast majority of policing every day which is good and attempts to stop evil people. That's really not what policing is about even in the most charitable view. It's certainly what policing has been propagandized to be. Besides playing candy crush in a cruiser, the vast majority of policing everyday is responding to complaints that happen after a crime happens (or someone getting nervous). The role of police, in the most charitable framing, is to catch people suspected of committing crimes. Evil is also something I'd quibble over. For example, the cops that are doing things like hiding in closets to catch people jumping a turnstile certainly aren't "stopping evil people". People are complex, there are few that are truly "evil". Now, my less charitable read on cops is they have overbloated budgets, too little oversight and consequences, and they certainly don't prioritize impactful crimes to low class people. Cops, for example, very rarely try and catch/stop bike theft. Cops primarily exist to punish people that pester the rich and well connected. See, for example, BAM and reckless ben.
- repeekad 20d ago
  Ever been mugged? I said this topic was a wedge, you are clearly someone who already doesn't have to deal with crime (as I said, privileged), and are projecting your own insecurities about it. In real life, good people want criminals stopped at all costs, especially when it inevitably happens to them. I'd love for police to catch the bike thief, we all hate bad policing, but being unconditionally anti-police is a great way to get normal people to disagree with your politics, and we get people like trump.
  - cogman10 20d ago
    > Ever been mugged? Mugged, no. But I've certainly had someone try and pickpocket me. > you are clearly someone who already doesn't have to deal with crime Not in my day to day. In fact, most people don't. I've certainly known people who have been mugged and the thing they've said is universal "The police didn't do jack shit". > and are projecting your own insecurities about it. That's an uncharitable reading of my comment. > In real life, good people want criminals stopped at all costs, especially when it inevitably happens to them. In real life, police don't stop crimes. They don't stop muggings. That's not the job of cops. As I stated and you don't really want to contend with, the role of cops is catching the people that mug after the muggings happen. Unless you want to literally blanket the streets with cops, they will never have enough presence to stop a mugging because, spoiler, muggers don't tend to be blind and they don't tend to mug when cops are around. Also here's that "good and evil" stuff again. No, good people don't have universal beliefs, you are using your own standards as "good" and classifying anyone who disagrees with you as evil. Life isn't black and white. I gave some pretty clear examples of that already (which you didn't respond to). > but being unconditionally anti-police is a great way to get normal people to disagree with your politics, and we get people like trump. Where, anywhere, have I stated that I'm anti-police? You are strawmanning me. Police are a necessity that should exist. But, unlike you, I realize they aren't superheroes flying in to stop crime. The state has to have enforcement of it's laws and something like cops will always exist. The question is, how much should we fund them and how much accountability should we expect. My standard is that cops who flagrantly abuse their authority (such as the cops in this article) should lose all ability to be cops. They are done, no more career. Do you disagree with that? Unless you are making the argument that it's impossible for cops to not power trip, then you should be able to clearly see that I'm not advocating that we abolish the police. Stop trying to play armchair psychologist and actually address my comment in your next response. It's annoying that you decided to put forward so many bad faith and misrepresentations of my argument in just a few sentences.
    - repeekad 18d ago
      You probably won't read this, but I agree my response was uncharitable and presumptuous of your perspective. I've just met enough people who want to "abolish the police" who have zero clue what they're talking about, who absolutely fit the narrative I erroneously painted of you. While I don't think police are omniscient superheros stopping crime before it happens, they are often true heros in every sense of the word. They put their lives on the line in very dangerous situations to try and prevent danger to others, and cops are killed in duty very regularly to no fanfare outside the local community. Police are a public good. Without a public police force the wealthy would happily fund their own security, and most already do. There are neighborhoods in San francisco with private security teams who simply bypass the shortcomings of SFPD. I'm not sure I follow why police inherently exist to serve only the interests of the wealthy. I agree with most everything else you said.

Bud 21d ago

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cogman10 20d ago

> You are not separating the vast majority of policing every day which is good and attempts to stop evil people. That's really not what policing is about even in the most charitable view. It's certainly what policing has been propagandized to be. Besides playing candy crush in a cruiser, the vast majority of policing everyday is responding to complaints that happen after a crime happens (or someone getting nervous). The role of police, in the most charitable framing, is to catch people suspected of committing crimes. Evil is also something I'd quibble over. For example, the cops that are doing things like hiding in closets to catch people jumping a turnstile certainly aren't "stopping evil people". People are complex, there are few that are truly "evil". Now, my less charitable read on cops is they have overbloated budgets, too little oversight and consequences, and they certainly don't prioritize impactful crimes to low class people. Cops, for example, very rarely try and catch/stop bike theft. Cops primarily exist to punish people that pester the rich and well connected. See, for example, BAM and reckless ben.

repeekad 20d ago
Ever been mugged? I said this topic was a wedge, you are clearly someone who already doesn't have to deal with crime (as I said, privileged), and are projecting your own insecurities about it. In real life, good people want criminals stopped at all costs, especially when it inevitably happens to them. I'd love for police to catch the bike thief, we all hate bad policing, but being unconditionally anti-police is a great way to get normal people to disagree with your politics, and we get people like trump.
- cogman10 20d ago
  > Ever been mugged? Mugged, no. But I've certainly had someone try and pickpocket me. > you are clearly someone who already doesn't have to deal with crime Not in my day to day. In fact, most people don't. I've certainly known people who have been mugged and the thing they've said is universal "The police didn't do jack shit". > and are projecting your own insecurities about it. That's an uncharitable reading of my comment. > In real life, good people want criminals stopped at all costs, especially when it inevitably happens to them. In real life, police don't stop crimes. They don't stop muggings. That's not the job of cops. As I stated and you don't really want to contend with, the role of cops is catching the people that mug after the muggings happen. Unless you want to literally blanket the streets with cops, they will never have enough presence to stop a mugging because, spoiler, muggers don't tend to be blind and they don't tend to mug when cops are around. Also here's that "good and evil" stuff again. No, good people don't have universal beliefs, you are using your own standards as "good" and classifying anyone who disagrees with you as evil. Life isn't black and white. I gave some pretty clear examples of that already (which you didn't respond to). > but being unconditionally anti-police is a great way to get normal people to disagree with your politics, and we get people like trump. Where, anywhere, have I stated that I'm anti-police? You are strawmanning me. Police are a necessity that should exist. But, unlike you, I realize they aren't superheroes flying in to stop crime. The state has to have enforcement of it's laws and something like cops will always exist. The question is, how much should we fund them and how much accountability should we expect. My standard is that cops who flagrantly abuse their authority (such as the cops in this article) should lose all ability to be cops. They are done, no more career. Do you disagree with that? Unless you are making the argument that it's impossible for cops to not power trip, then you should be able to clearly see that I'm not advocating that we abolish the police. Stop trying to play armchair psychologist and actually address my comment in your next response. It's annoying that you decided to put forward so many bad faith and misrepresentations of my argument in just a few sentences.
  - repeekad 18d ago
    You probably won't read this, but I agree my response was uncharitable and presumptuous of your perspective. I've just met enough people who want to "abolish the police" who have zero clue what they're talking about, who absolutely fit the narrative I erroneously painted of you. While I don't think police are omniscient superheros stopping crime before it happens, they are often true heros in every sense of the word. They put their lives on the line in very dangerous situations to try and prevent danger to others, and cops are killed in duty very regularly to no fanfare outside the local community. Police are a public good. Without a public police force the wealthy would happily fund their own security, and most already do. There are neighborhoods in San francisco with private security teams who simply bypass the shortcomings of SFPD. I'm not sure I follow why police inherently exist to serve only the interests of the wealthy. I agree with most everything else you said.