4 ms·

It's also a bit ironic, since Marco has a pride flag with the trans additions flying from his house. So is this blog post him coming to realize he's a part of t

by boxed 27d ago

It's also a bit ironic, since Marco has a pride flag with the trans additions flying from his house. So is this blog post him coming to realize he's a part of the problem or...?

rhinoceraptor 27d ago
He lives on Fire Island, that's about as political as flying the American flag in Orange County.
spiderfarmer 27d ago
The problem is not showing what you stand for. The problem is that your political system only offers two options. And then all that’s left is game theory.
thrance 26d ago
Yeah, how dare he make such a statement as "trans people exist and deserve rights"? This is equally as offensive as the other side's position of "trans people are all mentally ill, they should be ostracized and made as miserable as possible"! I'm tired of pretending this is a "both sides" issue. One side, and one side only, is diving further and further in their hatred of blacks, gays, trans, women, progressives, you-name-it. Progressives haven't changed their tunes, they're still on equal rights and public healthcare, as they have been for decades. It's on conservatives to do some introspection, and ask themselves why their views have become so toxic that the world is slowly distancing themselves from their country, now that their guy is in office.
- card_zero 26d ago
  The thesis seems to be 1. We could refrain from getting offended when just buying coffee etc., and overlook low-key indications of political views, in order to cooperate, 2. We could avoid offending one another with confrontational exhibitions of political views, in ordinary life, when not seeking a confrontation. In which case the fact that they are wrong, and we are correct and wonderful, and indeed the fact that moral relativism is kaput, can just be ignored in this ordinary everyday context. Which we could inhabit most days.
  - thrance 26d ago
    Okay, but I don't wanna. Would you have defended that same thesis in 1934 Germany, when the Right was pushing further and further into illiberalism? Should the Jews and Leftists have overlooked the mounting hate they received from society? No, what actually got rid of Nazism in the post-war era was how shameful it was to be perceived as one. That's how we overcame racism and homophobia too: by making it socially unacceptable to be such. So if you care about anything, you can't just treat "support for Trump" as simply another mundane personal preference. And I'm not saying that you shouldn't treat Trump supporters with empathy, just that ignoring their garbage views is not helping anyone or anything.
    - card_zero 26d ago
      One point is that being in an actual war changes the rules. If you're caught in a desperate fight for your civilization, you'll put civility on hold, because being polite wouldn't do any good and you're too busy being desperate. But unless you love living like you're in a warzone, you probably prefer to maintain civility at all other times. So you ask what one should do in 1934, on the cusp of war, in a pre-war situation. That kind of depends on knowing that it's a pre-war situation and knowing that things are desperate and that you should throw civility out of the window. If I was strongly aware of that fact (as some were), I'd be thinking mainly "how do I keep a low profile and escape from Germany," not "how do I tell the fascists that I disapprove of all they stand for". But I suppose there's a kind of antsy ambiguous semi-desperate state that just makes people angry without fully committing to desperation. Post-war is different of course because then you've won, and it's socially acceptable to be rude to nazis, the conventionally accepted bad guys. Common consent encourages it. It's a civil kind of rudeness!
      - thrance 26d ago
        It wasn't clear at all in 1934 that a war was coming. Maybe the most educated and politically conscious could have foreseen that something bad was going to happen, but I'd wager most of the World was clueless about Nazism up until its very end. I would direct you to the international press' commentary on the opening of the 1936 Olympics in Berlin. Lots of "Whatever should we think of this new Germany?". But we are not in wartimes, and my comment wasn't telling people that they should act as if we were. If anything, tolerating and overlooking bigotry isn't civism, it's how we invite incivility in our societies. Hence why I believe we shouldn't normalize the views of MAGA more than they already are. We're not in the same place Germany was in the 1930s, and I don't intend us to ever get there.
- boxed 26d ago
  That's not in practice what that flag means to many people though. That's kinda the point. The pride flag already was a rainbow, none of the colors meant anything specific. Adding to it is less inclusive and more crazy. And it's not a both sides issue AT ALL, unless you mean "both sides [that are heard in the media]" are absolutely crazy and wrong, in which case I'm with you. Trans rights are super important. Inclusivity and tolerance is super important. But not being able to talk about the science of gender dysphoria at all is not tolerance, it's a type of fascism, just coming from people who identify as left.

by boxed 27d ago

It's also a bit ironic, since Marco has a pride flag with the trans additions flying from his house. So is this blog post him coming to realize he's a part of the problem or...?

rhinoceraptor 27d ago

He lives on Fire Island, that's about as political as flying the American flag in Orange County.

spiderfarmer 27d ago

The problem is not showing what you stand for. The problem is that your political system only offers two options. And then all that’s left is game theory.

thrance 26d ago

Yeah, how dare he make such a statement as "trans people exist and deserve rights"? This is equally as offensive as the other side's position of "trans people are all mentally ill, they should be ostracized and made as miserable as possible"! I'm tired of pretending this is a "both sides" issue. One side, and one side only, is diving further and further in their hatred of blacks, gays, trans, women, progressives, you-name-it. Progressives haven't changed their tunes, they're still on equal rights and public healthcare, as they have been for decades. It's on conservatives to do some introspection, and ask themselves why their views have become so toxic that the world is slowly distancing themselves from their country, now that their guy is in office.

card_zero 26d ago
The thesis seems to be 1. We could refrain from getting offended when just buying coffee etc., and overlook low-key indications of political views, in order to cooperate, 2. We could avoid offending one another with confrontational exhibitions of political views, in ordinary life, when not seeking a confrontation. In which case the fact that they are wrong, and we are correct and wonderful, and indeed the fact that moral relativism is kaput, can just be ignored in this ordinary everyday context. Which we could inhabit most days.
- thrance 26d ago
  Okay, but I don't wanna. Would you have defended that same thesis in 1934 Germany, when the Right was pushing further and further into illiberalism? Should the Jews and Leftists have overlooked the mounting hate they received from society? No, what actually got rid of Nazism in the post-war era was how shameful it was to be perceived as one. That's how we overcame racism and homophobia too: by making it socially unacceptable to be such. So if you care about anything, you can't just treat "support for Trump" as simply another mundane personal preference. And I'm not saying that you shouldn't treat Trump supporters with empathy, just that ignoring their garbage views is not helping anyone or anything.
  - card_zero 26d ago
    One point is that being in an actual war changes the rules. If you're caught in a desperate fight for your civilization, you'll put civility on hold, because being polite wouldn't do any good and you're too busy being desperate. But unless you love living like you're in a warzone, you probably prefer to maintain civility at all other times. So you ask what one should do in 1934, on the cusp of war, in a pre-war situation. That kind of depends on knowing that it's a pre-war situation and knowing that things are desperate and that you should throw civility out of the window. If I was strongly aware of that fact (as some were), I'd be thinking mainly "how do I keep a low profile and escape from Germany," not "how do I tell the fascists that I disapprove of all they stand for". But I suppose there's a kind of antsy ambiguous semi-desperate state that just makes people angry without fully committing to desperation. Post-war is different of course because then you've won, and it's socially acceptable to be rude to nazis, the conventionally accepted bad guys. Common consent encourages it. It's a civil kind of rudeness!
    - thrance 26d ago
      It wasn't clear at all in 1934 that a war was coming. Maybe the most educated and politically conscious could have foreseen that something bad was going to happen, but I'd wager most of the World was clueless about Nazism up until its very end. I would direct you to the international press' commentary on the opening of the 1936 Olympics in Berlin. Lots of "Whatever should we think of this new Germany?". But we are not in wartimes, and my comment wasn't telling people that they should act as if we were. If anything, tolerating and overlooking bigotry isn't civism, it's how we invite incivility in our societies. Hence why I believe we shouldn't normalize the views of MAGA more than they already are. We're not in the same place Germany was in the 1930s, and I don't intend us to ever get there.
boxed 26d ago
That's not in practice what that flag means to many people though. That's kinda the point. The pride flag already was a rainbow, none of the colors meant anything specific. Adding to it is less inclusive and more crazy. And it's not a both sides issue AT ALL, unless you mean "both sides [that are heard in the media]" are absolutely crazy and wrong, in which case I'm with you. Trans rights are super important. Inclusivity and tolerance is super important. But not being able to talk about the science of gender dysphoria at all is not tolerance, it's a type of fascism, just coming from people who identify as left.