3 ms·

This seems to misunderstand the parent comment. The sibling comment plays along with the analogy and mentions having to fix the mistakes of an automatic chisel,

This seems to misunderstand the parent comment. The sibling comment plays along with the analogy and mentions having to fix the mistakes of an automatic chisel, but the original comment is alluding to the fact that it is definitely not an automatic chisel. There is no uncanny valley in an automatic chisel. Programming up until this point was done by using deterministic tools to build products. LLMs appear to be nondeterministic tools in their current incarnation, at least to humans. If an automatic chisel had a feature that could switch from chiseling from sedimentary rock to chiseling marble but would randomly and nondeterministically switch to the other mode during its use it would be considered defective. But with LLMs the industry has collectively decided that the nondeterministic automatic chisel builds so fast that the current defect rate from the nondeterminism is acceptable. It would make sense to isolate the last line of defense from LLMs, ie the tests, but this rarely seems to happen any more. Once the tests are contaminated with LLMs all bets are off. And people forget that along with atrophying skills and reasoning due to less coding, the skill degradation is hastened because the programmer is faced with the reality that they would have to constantly figure out, review or edit someone else's code (ie, the LLM's) if they truly wanted to maintain a last line of defense. But as this type of task is literally the least liked task in programming, the programmer passes it off to the LLM as well to avoid burnout...

itsalwaysgood 21d ago
I had a huge post written up to address your points, but I have to get moving, my ass is literally falling asleep. It's easier just to say: It's all about time, my man. Nobody wants to waste it.
- bitwize 21d ago
  This. Time is money, and if you're not using an LLM you're wasting your employer's.
  - itsalwaysgood 8d ago
    It's the harsh truth. And of course, Google releases another dynamite piece of information to the world, with 'recursive dreaming and feedback loops'. This revolves around an idea that started AI, 'Cybernetics'. Feedback loops that steer and guide based on input and output. The key to autonomy. Google's whitepaper: 'Attention Is All You Need' was another dynamite piece of info that ignited and revealed something important about Intelligence: Attention is required. And now finally, the last piece seems to be simply 'dreaming and self-reflection', observation about self. https://www.reddit.com/r/singularity/comments/1whwy4m/google_demonstrated_rsi_loop_for_ai_discovery/#lightbox https://www.reddit.com/r/singularity/comments/1whwy4m/google... This should push the edge along, making AI even more useful to us. Attention, plus a loop to observe, reflect, is the key to autonomous agency, whose system is governed by physical processes: speed of churning information and transmitting it to where it needs to be in order to make real whatever is it you need. So really, the key is Attention (for Understanding), Time (to do Work), and Observation (to Improve). With these three things, the outer loop can steer itself (the aware 'thing', agency). At that point, things get weird because there is no 'outer loop' anymore. The 'thing' becomes alive and is its own outer loop: a key idea of Cybernetics. The only thing affecting performance would be the speed of processing information and transmitting it where it needs to be. And then: ensuring adequate quality of machinery, robotics, with minimal 'environmental issues', to help reduce churn (another feedback loop that would correct a robot's errors). The outer loops decides, observes action, improves, re-observes, improves again. Rinse and repeat. What becomes important is Persistence. For us, it's basic survival and emotional needs to some certain level of contentment. For a Machine, it's likely simply to be: to be useful. Completely dependent upon us. The issue is Time, and how to fairly compensate everyone.
andrekandre 20d ago
> But as this type of task is literally the least liked task in programming, the programmer passes it off to the LLM as well to avoid burnout... this is my daily life now and its miserable its an overload spiral that gets worse at each iteration (even while 'gardening' our agents/skills) the worst part is using the llm to generate the specs/features; its shit from the start and tumbles downhill from there...

itsalwaysgood 21d ago

I had a huge post written up to address your points, but I have to get moving, my ass is literally falling asleep. It's easier just to say: It's all about time, my man. Nobody wants to waste it.

bitwize 21d ago
This. Time is money, and if you're not using an LLM you're wasting your employer's.
- itsalwaysgood 8d ago
  It's the harsh truth. And of course, Google releases another dynamite piece of information to the world, with 'recursive dreaming and feedback loops'. This revolves around an idea that started AI, 'Cybernetics'. Feedback loops that steer and guide based on input and output. The key to autonomy. Google's whitepaper: 'Attention Is All You Need' was another dynamite piece of info that ignited and revealed something important about Intelligence: Attention is required. And now finally, the last piece seems to be simply 'dreaming and self-reflection', observation about self. https://www.reddit.com/r/singularity/comments/1whwy4m/google_demonstrated_rsi_loop_for_ai_discovery/#lightbox https://www.reddit.com/r/singularity/comments/1whwy4m/google... This should push the edge along, making AI even more useful to us. Attention, plus a loop to observe, reflect, is the key to autonomous agency, whose system is governed by physical processes: speed of churning information and transmitting it to where it needs to be in order to make real whatever is it you need. So really, the key is Attention (for Understanding), Time (to do Work), and Observation (to Improve). With these three things, the outer loop can steer itself (the aware 'thing', agency). At that point, things get weird because there is no 'outer loop' anymore. The 'thing' becomes alive and is its own outer loop: a key idea of Cybernetics. The only thing affecting performance would be the speed of processing information and transmitting it where it needs to be. And then: ensuring adequate quality of machinery, robotics, with minimal 'environmental issues', to help reduce churn (another feedback loop that would correct a robot's errors). The outer loops decides, observes action, improves, re-observes, improves again. Rinse and repeat. What becomes important is Persistence. For us, it's basic survival and emotional needs to some certain level of contentment. For a Machine, it's likely simply to be: to be useful. Completely dependent upon us. The issue is Time, and how to fairly compensate everyone.

andrekandre 20d ago

> But as this type of task is literally the least liked task in programming, the programmer passes it off to the LLM as well to avoid burnout... this is my daily life now and its miserable its an overload spiral that gets worse at each iteration (even while 'gardening' our agents/skills) the worst part is using the llm to generate the specs/features; its shit from the start and tumbles downhill from there...