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Batteries don't solve the storage problem, but surely you know this. China is pursuing the strategy you're describing, but there's a reason they're also buildi

Batteries don't solve the storage problem, but surely you know this. China is pursuing the strategy you're describing, but there's a reason they're also building nuclear, they're increasing LNG infrastructure, they haven't phased out coal, and they've built a huge amount of oil storage. Solar and wind can be part of that strategy but it's not so simple, otherwise people would do it

watwut 26d ago
Bateries do solve storage problems. And yes, china energy strategy is based on wind and solar - their portion of China energy production is massively growing.
- ifwinterco 26d ago
  Batteries can solve short term (days to a week at most) storage problems, they don't solve seasonal storage problems - making sure you have enough energy all the way through a cold, not very sunny, and not consistently windy winter. If you don't believe me, run the numbers of how many kg of lithium batteries China would need to supply an entire week of energy in the middle of winter (all energy, not just current electricity demand, because in this scenario we're assuming everything is 100% electrified). Also if you're potentially going to be fighting a war, you need more energy, not less, and it's even more important for it to be reliable year-round. This is why China is doing what they're doing, they're not idiots and they know that wishful thinking is not a strategy
  - watwut 26d ago
    You dont need "very sunny" for solar to work. If you need to invent dark windless winter to make a non existent issue maybe you are just too deep in bullshit.
    - ifwinterco 26d ago
      Again just run the numbers - full sun in summer vs cloudy day in the middle of winter even at only 40 degree latitude. Output in the latter case will be under 10% of full power and probably under 5%. It’s not bullshit it’s just physics, which is why the world looks like it does and not like the world you’re describing
locknitpicker 26d ago
> China is pursuing the strategy you're describing, but there's a reason they're also building nuclear, they're increasing LNG infrastructure, they haven't phased out coal, and they've built a huge amount of oil storage. This opinion is rather simplistic. China is reported to have 60% of it's energy needs already supplied by renewable sources, but this transition creates different types of challenges such as preserving the power grid's inertia. Otherwise you might see yourself in a scenario such as the Spanish blackout. This means having in place strategies for fast response (gas) and baseline (hydro storage, nuclear) to prevent the scenario.
- dv_dt 26d ago
  batteries are the fastest response power. gas is high maintenance, & bad capex as an intermittent source.
  - locknitpicker 26d ago
    > batteries are the fastest response power. gas is high maintenance, & bad capex as an intermittent source. Batteries have a limited capacity and have a higher investment cost. Gas is the standard option for fast response. Pumped-storage hydro has by far the highest capex and has a heavy environment impact. It's baffling how people show up in this sort of discussions arguing that standard tried-and-true strategies somehow don't work. Quite odd.
    - dv_dt 26d ago
      Batteries and solar have been beating lifetime cost of fast response gas turbines for five years or more. Now with uncontrolled fossil fuel cost spikes the operating costs of gas are highly variable compared to the pretty much flat investment and operating cost on battery + solar. if one were comparing battery plus renewables for full seasonal offsets are tighter, but the costs are so much lower, you can provision more and plan to dump power in the summer (or maybe not as this last long hot fossil fueled climate change summer will drive new demand for a/c)

watwut 26d ago

Bateries do solve storage problems. And yes, china energy strategy is based on wind and solar - their portion of China energy production is massively growing.

ifwinterco 26d ago
Batteries can solve short term (days to a week at most) storage problems, they don't solve seasonal storage problems - making sure you have enough energy all the way through a cold, not very sunny, and not consistently windy winter. If you don't believe me, run the numbers of how many kg of lithium batteries China would need to supply an entire week of energy in the middle of winter (all energy, not just current electricity demand, because in this scenario we're assuming everything is 100% electrified). Also if you're potentially going to be fighting a war, you need more energy, not less, and it's even more important for it to be reliable year-round. This is why China is doing what they're doing, they're not idiots and they know that wishful thinking is not a strategy
- watwut 26d ago
  You dont need "very sunny" for solar to work. If you need to invent dark windless winter to make a non existent issue maybe you are just too deep in bullshit.
  - ifwinterco 26d ago
    Again just run the numbers - full sun in summer vs cloudy day in the middle of winter even at only 40 degree latitude. Output in the latter case will be under 10% of full power and probably under 5%. It’s not bullshit it’s just physics, which is why the world looks like it does and not like the world you’re describing

locknitpicker 26d ago

> China is pursuing the strategy you're describing, but there's a reason they're also building nuclear, they're increasing LNG infrastructure, they haven't phased out coal, and they've built a huge amount of oil storage. This opinion is rather simplistic. China is reported to have 60% of it's energy needs already supplied by renewable sources, but this transition creates different types of challenges such as preserving the power grid's inertia. Otherwise you might see yourself in a scenario such as the Spanish blackout. This means having in place strategies for fast response (gas) and baseline (hydro storage, nuclear) to prevent the scenario.

dv_dt 26d ago
batteries are the fastest response power. gas is high maintenance, & bad capex as an intermittent source.
- locknitpicker 26d ago
  > batteries are the fastest response power. gas is high maintenance, & bad capex as an intermittent source. Batteries have a limited capacity and have a higher investment cost. Gas is the standard option for fast response. Pumped-storage hydro has by far the highest capex and has a heavy environment impact. It's baffling how people show up in this sort of discussions arguing that standard tried-and-true strategies somehow don't work. Quite odd.
  - dv_dt 26d ago
    Batteries and solar have been beating lifetime cost of fast response gas turbines for five years or more. Now with uncontrolled fossil fuel cost spikes the operating costs of gas are highly variable compared to the pretty much flat investment and operating cost on battery + solar. if one were comparing battery plus renewables for full seasonal offsets are tighter, but the costs are so much lower, you can provision more and plan to dump power in the summer (or maybe not as this last long hot fossil fueled climate change summer will drive new demand for a/c)