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I live in the UK and was having this exact discussion with someone recently - I'd actually prefer Apple to be the owners of my digital identity over the UK gove

by drcongo 1mo ago

I live in the UK and was having this exact discussion with someone recently - I'd actually prefer Apple to be the owners of my digital identity over the UK government who would happily throw you in jail for expressing support for Palestine Action.

deleted 1mo ago
[deleted]
drawfloat 1mo ago
Your digital identity would then be under the jurisdiction of the US government, who (despite talking a big game) are arguably worse for that same sort of behaviour. If anyone has to have this type of control, better it be a local national government that you can in at least some small way influence.
- pibaker 1mo ago
  No it isn't. The 1A is held strongly even by the most reactionary parts of American politics and jurisdiction. You will not be thrown into a jail just for expressing your support for a group as it happens in the UK.
  - drawfloat 29d ago
    People were jailed over Charlie Kirk statements within the last year...
myrmidon 1mo ago
I understand the sentiment, but your government you can actually fix by voting. If Apple (or another large international company) suffers from decreasing margins, gets a new CEO and decides to turn the data it sits on into money there is absolutely nothing you can do, and you might in fact still stay a "forced" customer because of network effects (=> just consider whatsapp being an important communication channel in many places worldwide). I think this attitude in general is often harmful; if your government sucks, fix the government instead of making yourself dependent on some quasi-monopolist private company.
- eastbound 1mo ago
  You can fix companies by voting a government too. In fact, governments are quicker at fixing companies than themselves.
  - myrmidon 1mo ago
    > You can fix companies by voting a government too Indirectly only. This is typically also always too late; instead of doing "the right thing" in the first place, companies are disincentivized by regulation from doing "bad things" again. Regulations are like scar tissue, they don't help against getting burnt in the first place. Preemptive regulation typically sucks, and is admittedly extremely difficult to get right; most governments don't even bother trying. Corporation know this and exploit it ruthlessly-- there are almost never consequences as long as they keep to the letter of the law, even when acting with intent, against better knowledge and causing astronomical damage to society (just consider the whole leaded gas disaster for an extremely clear example).
  - segfaltnh 1mo ago
    Sure but even when it works it slower and less total than good policy. Of course, good policy is a rare bird, too.
padjo 1mo ago
I think this is a bit of a non sequitur. The government will still be able to throw you in prison in either scenario. They will also be able to compel disclosure of your records in either scenario. So the difference is really just that in the scenario where apple verifies your identity there's an additional actor in the mix over who you have zero influence. It seems strictly worse.
esperent 1mo ago
> throw you in jail for expressing support for Palestine Action. For those unfamiliar, you are, of course, allowed to peacefully protest in support of Palestine in the UK. Palestine Action is a specific group that was controversially labelled as a terrorist group after they broke onto a runway and spray painted military planes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Action https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Action
- Nursie 1mo ago
  Which has now also been declared a terrorist organisation by the US, I believe, off the back of that.
psychoslave 1mo ago
LOL, no, not in this side thanks. Be it by giant transnational corp or centralized all powerful government, the ruin of the noosphere is equally awful.
Tangurena2 1mo ago
It would be best for any such ID system to capture only the minimum data to fulfil their function. Pre-WW2 Dutch records also listed religion, which made it very easy for the Nazis to round up and murder them. Some examples from Kansas show that even recording sex/gender is risky - state law requires driving licenses to record the original sex/gender from the first birth certificate leading to trans women having an M sex/gender marker getting arrested and prosecuted for identity fraud.

by drcongo 1mo ago

deleted 1mo ago

[deleted]

drawfloat 1mo ago

Your digital identity would then be under the jurisdiction of the US government, who (despite talking a big game) are arguably worse for that same sort of behaviour. If anyone has to have this type of control, better it be a local national government that you can in at least some small way influence.

pibaker 1mo ago
No it isn't. The 1A is held strongly even by the most reactionary parts of American politics and jurisdiction. You will not be thrown into a jail just for expressing your support for a group as it happens in the UK.
- drawfloat 29d ago
  People were jailed over Charlie Kirk statements within the last year...

myrmidon 1mo ago

I understand the sentiment, but your government you can actually fix by voting. If Apple (or another large international company) suffers from decreasing margins, gets a new CEO and decides to turn the data it sits on into money there is absolutely nothing you can do, and you might in fact still stay a "forced" customer because of network effects (=> just consider whatsapp being an important communication channel in many places worldwide). I think this attitude in general is often harmful; if your government sucks, fix the government instead of making yourself dependent on some quasi-monopolist private company.

eastbound 1mo ago
You can fix companies by voting a government too. In fact, governments are quicker at fixing companies than themselves.
- myrmidon 1mo ago
  > You can fix companies by voting a government too Indirectly only. This is typically also always too late; instead of doing "the right thing" in the first place, companies are disincentivized by regulation from doing "bad things" again. Regulations are like scar tissue, they don't help against getting burnt in the first place. Preemptive regulation typically sucks, and is admittedly extremely difficult to get right; most governments don't even bother trying. Corporation know this and exploit it ruthlessly-- there are almost never consequences as long as they keep to the letter of the law, even when acting with intent, against better knowledge and causing astronomical damage to society (just consider the whole leaded gas disaster for an extremely clear example).
- segfaltnh 1mo ago
  Sure but even when it works it slower and less total than good policy. Of course, good policy is a rare bird, too.

padjo 1mo ago

I think this is a bit of a non sequitur. The government will still be able to throw you in prison in either scenario. They will also be able to compel disclosure of your records in either scenario. So the difference is really just that in the scenario where apple verifies your identity there's an additional actor in the mix over who you have zero influence. It seems strictly worse.

esperent 1mo ago

> throw you in jail for expressing support for Palestine Action. For those unfamiliar, you are, of course, allowed to peacefully protest in support of Palestine in the UK. Palestine Action is a specific group that was controversially labelled as a terrorist group after they broke onto a runway and spray painted military planes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Action https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Action

Nursie 1mo ago
Which has now also been declared a terrorist organisation by the US, I believe, off the back of that.

psychoslave 1mo ago

LOL, no, not in this side thanks. Be it by giant transnational corp or centralized all powerful government, the ruin of the noosphere is equally awful.

Tangurena2 1mo ago

It would be best for any such ID system to capture only the minimum data to fulfil their function. Pre-WW2 Dutch records also listed religion, which made it very easy for the Nazis to round up and murder them. Some examples from Kansas show that even recording sex/gender is risky - state law requires driving licenses to record the original sex/gender from the first birth certificate leading to trans women having an M sex/gender marker getting arrested and prosecuted for identity fraud.