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What China does hardly indicates economic sense, and you can be sure you won't hear about the down sides or failures. They already very agressively hide car lit

What China does hardly indicates economic sense, and you can be sure you won't hear about the down sides or failures. They already very agressively hide car lithium fires but they're very frequent. Economics over there are mostly investment driven with a large dose of ideology and vanity, not demand driven. You can see it everywhere including the massive amounts of empty housings for example

dmichulke 1mo ago
This ignores the fact that there are also things that China does better or equal than Western companies. Like robots, solar panels, electric cars (?), AI models, electronics. They must be good at something, otherwise China wouldn't be where it is. So flat out dismissing anything from China is not enough of an argument. Mind you, I'm not saying you're generally wrong, just your "generally" is wrong. ;-)
- ddlsmurf 1mo ago
  I'd dispute they do any of those better, they stole the IP, then used public funds to make cheaper versions in the hope of leading the markets, including by being artificially more affordable while there is any competition. Besides electric cars and solar, it's very debatable wether those will actually be ecological in the end. For ex. they are still opening massive amounts of fossil based electric plants, so the truck that is half battery is actually running on coal anyway. It would take an incredible re-work of the electric grids to accomodate actually transitioning away from thermal cars, including some solution for seasonal storage. If you're impressed by their robots, I don't know what you're looking at, they seem to be ridiculous, not even at the tech level that boston dynamics had decades ago. Finally keep in mind that electric cars are fantastic spying devices, for collecting data, and if you're nefarious, imagine hacking into them. That's why teslas are banned near anything governmental in China. So there is a huge strategic advantage to cornering that market, but not really to save the planet. The AIs are all distilled, USA still leads by far there, and they too are strategic weapons
  - ragebol 1mo ago
    > used public funds to make cheaper versions in the hope of leading the markets, including by being artificially more affordable while there is any competition If you replace 'public' with 'VC', isn't that the exact same as the US does in Silicon Valley?
    - ddlsmurf 1mo ago
      if VCs didn't care about making their money back, but instead had very different interests, then somewhat
      - ragebol 29d ago
        You don't think China (as a whole and as the government) is making it's money back? If not now, then in a few years
        ddlsmurf 27d ago
        They're really not, the tiniest bits have shown with evergreen for ex, all the ghost cities. We don't really see the people who's savings, which with kids is the only "pension", have been demolished, on an individual level Chinese tend to save way more than others, this is gone. There's the demographic issue on top, the famines, that they import 70% of their food, depend on trade which the americans are withdrawing for protecting the routes of, and other unadressed issues because the priority is this investment, the missing population, the utter lack of statistics, even internally. Most likely the biggest factor will be wether they try something in Taiwan next year as they warned.
  - cpt_sobel 1mo ago
    > they stole the IP, then used public funds to make cheaper versions in the hope of leading the markets If you steal my IP and you make a better - or at least comparative but cheaper - product, that's on me for not innovating further.
    - 1mo ago
deleted 1mo ago
[deleted]
D_Alex 1mo ago
>They already very agressively hide car lithium fires But you found out... how?
- ddlsmurf 1mo ago
  They regularly pop up on the usual guanxi, douyin/weibo etc. They stay up for a few hours usually.
  - mbesto 29d ago
    > but they're very frequent. Yet you state their frequency as some sort of statistical fact. Your anecdotal experience doesn't make it any more or less true.
    - ddlsmurf 29d ago
      and you are refuting with even less justification. I told you how to check for yourself if you actually cared about veracity. Best of luck trying to get funding to publish something academic anti-CCP though, but I'd love it if you did. Also this is just a conversation, not an academic debate
      - mbesto 29d ago
        > I told you how to check for yourself if you actually cared about veracity. Which means nothing. You still dont get my point. > Also this is just a conversation, not an academic debate It can be both.
ragebol 1mo ago
Being dependent on (cheap) oil can make economic sense as well. Unless you get cut off all of a sudden. Depending on local energy might make more sense in the long term. also for factor other than the economy.

dmichulke 1mo ago

This ignores the fact that there are also things that China does better or equal than Western companies. Like robots, solar panels, electric cars (?), AI models, electronics. They must be good at something, otherwise China wouldn't be where it is. So flat out dismissing anything from China is not enough of an argument. Mind you, I'm not saying you're generally wrong, just your "generally" is wrong. ;-)

ddlsmurf 1mo ago
I'd dispute they do any of those better, they stole the IP, then used public funds to make cheaper versions in the hope of leading the markets, including by being artificially more affordable while there is any competition. Besides electric cars and solar, it's very debatable wether those will actually be ecological in the end. For ex. they are still opening massive amounts of fossil based electric plants, so the truck that is half battery is actually running on coal anyway. It would take an incredible re-work of the electric grids to accomodate actually transitioning away from thermal cars, including some solution for seasonal storage. If you're impressed by their robots, I don't know what you're looking at, they seem to be ridiculous, not even at the tech level that boston dynamics had decades ago. Finally keep in mind that electric cars are fantastic spying devices, for collecting data, and if you're nefarious, imagine hacking into them. That's why teslas are banned near anything governmental in China. So there is a huge strategic advantage to cornering that market, but not really to save the planet. The AIs are all distilled, USA still leads by far there, and they too are strategic weapons
- ragebol 1mo ago
  > used public funds to make cheaper versions in the hope of leading the markets, including by being artificially more affordable while there is any competition If you replace 'public' with 'VC', isn't that the exact same as the US does in Silicon Valley?
  - ddlsmurf 1mo ago
    if VCs didn't care about making their money back, but instead had very different interests, then somewhat
    - ragebol 29d ago
      You don't think China (as a whole and as the government) is making it's money back? If not now, then in a few years
      - ddlsmurf 27d ago
        They're really not, the tiniest bits have shown with evergreen for ex, all the ghost cities. We don't really see the people who's savings, which with kids is the only "pension", have been demolished, on an individual level Chinese tend to save way more than others, this is gone. There's the demographic issue on top, the famines, that they import 70% of their food, depend on trade which the americans are withdrawing for protecting the routes of, and other unadressed issues because the priority is this investment, the missing population, the utter lack of statistics, even internally. Most likely the biggest factor will be wether they try something in Taiwan next year as they warned.
- cpt_sobel 1mo ago
  > they stole the IP, then used public funds to make cheaper versions in the hope of leading the markets If you steal my IP and you make a better - or at least comparative but cheaper - product, that's on me for not innovating further.
  - 1mo ago

deleted 1mo ago

[deleted]

D_Alex 1mo ago

>They already very agressively hide car lithium fires But you found out... how?

ddlsmurf 1mo ago
They regularly pop up on the usual guanxi, douyin/weibo etc. They stay up for a few hours usually.
- mbesto 29d ago
  > but they're very frequent. Yet you state their frequency as some sort of statistical fact. Your anecdotal experience doesn't make it any more or less true.
  - ddlsmurf 29d ago
    and you are refuting with even less justification. I told you how to check for yourself if you actually cared about veracity. Best of luck trying to get funding to publish something academic anti-CCP though, but I'd love it if you did. Also this is just a conversation, not an academic debate
    - mbesto 29d ago
      > I told you how to check for yourself if you actually cared about veracity. Which means nothing. You still dont get my point. > Also this is just a conversation, not an academic debate It can be both.

ragebol 1mo ago

Being dependent on (cheap) oil can make economic sense as well. Unless you get cut off all of a sudden. Depending on local energy might make more sense in the long term. also for factor other than the economy.